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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: I welcome the fact that figures were presented to us earlier. It is hard to follow what the bank is doing. We wondered in the context of a previous questionnaire how we could be sure that the bank had offered sustainable solutions to people who had walked away from their family homes. I find it difficult to have any confidence, given that the bank has lost three court judgments. I have...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: Okay. The problem is that this is the time when we are supposed to discuss it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: There is no point coming before this committee if the information that is provided is not accurate, which Mr. Bell has admitted is the case.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: According to its own figures, Ulster Bank has reached and surpassed the mortgage arrears resolution targets. It has done that through legal proceedings and the threat of legal proceedings.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: Can Mr. Bell explain how the bank would have reached the target without legal proceedings or the threat of legal proceedings?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: The point I am making is that without legal proceedings of the scale at which they have been initiated by Ulster Bank, the bank would not have reached its mortgage arrears resolution target.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: Is Mr. Bell accepting that Ulster Bank would not have reached the mortgage arrears resolution target without legal proceedings?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: The bank has issued 5,810 legal proceedings or threats of legal proceedings. Can we at least agree that the bank would not have reached the mortgage arrears resolution target without them?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: The Minister for Finance echoed those comments earlier when he said, "I have informed the Deputy previously that letters threatening repossession or legal action could not in my opinion be considered a sustainable solution under the mortgage arrears targets". The Minister is saying that letters threatening repossession or legal action should not be included because it was never the spirit of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: There are customers with mortgages on their family homes who have engaged with Ulster Bank, but against whom the bank has issued legal proceedings.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: Mr. Brown mentioned earlier that there is "an element of customers, approximately 4,000, who have not engaged with us at all".

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: As I have already said, there have been legal proceedings or the threat of legal proceedings in 5,810 cases. The bank wants to present it in one way. I am presenting it in another way. I am just asking for confirmation that the bank has initiated legal proceedings against people and their families who have engaged with it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: Mr. Bell has gone back to the bank's dealings with those who do not engage. The bank wants to present the idea that this group of people - those who have not discussed their situations and will not answer phone calls - are the only people against whom it issues legal proceedings.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: I suggest that the bank is issuing legal proceedings against people who have engaged with it. To put it simply, there is a certain cohort of people who are not in a position to repay to Ulster Bank huge amounts of money that the bank lent to them but they should probably never have got. The bank has looked at sustainable solutions. We can deal with the sustainable solutions.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: I will go through the numbers with regard to sustainable solutions. There are four columns, the first of which relates to term extension. The majority of these cases - almost 4,000 of them - involve arrears capitalisation, to which the second column relates. The other two columns relate to a number of other smaller items which seem to involve normal repayments. Most of these people would...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: I welcome representatives of Ulster Bank to the meeting. I also welcome the news that the bank will continue to operate as a financial institution on the island of Ireland. That is as far as my welcome extends. The focus of the meeting is mortgage arrears target, although other issues arise regarding Ulster Bank. I corresponded with Mr. Brown who asked his public relations staff to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: I will put the question again. Mr. Brown should note that a report issued in recent days by the Insolvency Service of Ireland states that, on average, personal insolvency arrangements propose a write-off of 19% of secured debt, with the figure ranging from 0% to 39%. The service, therefore, informs us that, under the proposals Ulster Bank boldly claims it is not vetoing, an average of 19%...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: Sorry, as there is a time limit, I will ask a simple question for the third time. Ulster Bank has made the bold statement that it does not write off mortgage debt, in other words, secured debt. The bank has a veto over personal insolvency arrangements. Given that these arrangements will, on average, propose the writing off of 19% of secured debt, will Ulster Bank stick to its position, as...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: I understand Mr. Bell's answer to be a "No".

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Mortgage Arrears Resolution Process: (Resumed) Ulster Bank (8 Apr 2014)

Pearse Doherty: I spent four minutes trying to elicit that answer. Basically, Ulster Bank will veto the personal insolvency arrangements because in cases where the Insolvency Service of Ireland has proposed a write-down of secured debt, the average amount is 19%.

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