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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Can Mr. Devine let me put the question?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Yes, I understand. Allow me to put the question. I am accepting all of that. I am saying they were brought in as experts by CHI and supported by the NPHDB. They reported in May and said there was a problem. They came back in October and were hugely upset that the works were not done. They then reported back in November, identified more problems and in fact said it was very disappointing...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: But the problem here is that I can only go on the information we have, which is that we have an independent expert that was brought in that clearly has a different view and clearly is not satisfied with the air circulation-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: -----which we know is really important in operating theatres. I wish to make one final point. There are now workshops established. Can Mr. Devine confirm that BAM will be in those workshops but there are also other major contractors – mechanical and engineering – that will form part of those workshops?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: That is not the question I asked.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: I do not have much time. I am asking Mr. Devine a direct question.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: I have given Mr. Devine time to say that. I wish to clarify this. Those experts and contractors are now in workshops, so they have not reported back-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Have they reported back?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: I have a point of order, if I can make it very quickly.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: I respect Senator Conway, but we need to be very careful we are not putting figures out there that are not real figures. We all have a responsibility here. A figure was put out there that is not coming from the board. It is not a real figure.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: It is just because figures can be put out which can then be misrepresented as real. I am just making that point.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Mr. Gunning's opening statement was very hard-hitting and I do not think he should apologise for that because it is his job to make sure that the contractor does its job. He said its behaviour is unacceptable and he illustrated a number of examples, such as where there was only 65% progress and 35% compliance. I would imagine that relates to feet on the ground in terms of getting work done....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Mr. Gunning did so in his opening statement.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: It is obvious from what Mr. Gunning is saying that one could use terms such as "go-slow", "slowing down the project", a "tactic" or a "strategy". From Mr. Gunning's perspective, it is certainly not providing the capacity that is needed to complete the job as quickly as it said it would. That is essentially what Mr. Gunning is saying.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Okay. There is frustration on everybody's part.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: I can hear the frustration coming through Mr. Gunning's opening statement, but I can tell him that the public is even more frustrated, because there are more costs and more time delays. Nobody can really have any confidence in any dates that we are being given at this point. On the one hand, there are all of these claims that now amount to €750 million. On the other hand, there is...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: What I am saying is that Mr. Gunning has asked for more-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: I am not even going to waste my time asking for the figure-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Mr. Gunning has told us why he cannot give us the figure, so I am asking if this means that the board is increasing what it sees as the contingency to deal with claims.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Health: Update on New National Children’s Hospital: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board (12 Jul 2023)

David Cullinane: Mr. Gunning says he is open to meeting with BAM, but what I am trying to figure out is there are all of these claims that can be dealt with in a number of different ways. One can use the processes, such as the employer representative process, conciliation or the High Court, which may sort some of this out, or parties can sit down and resolve this. I am asking if there will be an attempt for...

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