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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Review of Medical Consultants' Tax Affairs
Chapter 14 - Research and Development Tax Credit
Chapter 16 - Deferral of Tobacco Stamp Liability
(1 Jun 2017)

Shane Cassells: Is Mr. Cody happy with the manner in which the scheme is working and being administered?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriations Account
Chapter 13 - Revenue's Review of Medical Consultants' Tax Affairs
Chapter 14 - Research and Development Tax Credit
Chapter 16 - Deferral of Tobacco Stamp Liability
(1 Jun 2017)

Shane Cassells: I am glad to hear that, specifically as regards helping food companies. A couple of large producers in my constituency export to China, which forms a large part of their houses. I welcome Revenue's help, given what it means for regional centres and their economic plans.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: Listening to the evidence here this morning and what has been said to my colleagues, what is most striking, from this last exchange in particular, is the divergence of views, especially in that last exchange between Mr. Ruane and Mr. Culhane. Sometimes the early exchanges were bordering on hostility towards each other, with people needing to make freedom of information, FOI, requests to get...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: That is an important point.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: That is a fair point in terms of Mr. Kelly saying they had no real assistance and he would sympathise with them. I asked whether it was wilful misappropriation or incompetence because, going back to Mr. Culhane's letter to Mr. Kelly from February 2017, in point No. 1 on the second page of the letter, he says that on several occasions Mr. Kelly was reported to have stated in relation to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: In what context were they used? Mr. Kelly is not denying that he said that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: The words in particular were "led away in handcuffs".

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: This is very important because Mr. Kelly has just said that he had sympathy for the people in the college-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: -----and the large sums of money they were being expected to handle with no appropriate training whatsoever. Mr. Kelly has now admitted that he said that people would be led away in handcuffs but that it was taken out of context. It is an important point and has been picked up in the press, and I want to explore that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: I am going to touch on that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: Is that Mr. Culhane's interpretation of that remark?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: Returning to Deputy MacSharry's earlier comments, we put it to Mr. Culhane about keeping it in-house and dealing with the problem. In Mr. Culhane's letter of October 2015 to the Commissioner and deputy commissioner, he used several adjectives in respect of Mr. Barrett in that letter. The journalists sitting in the Gallery can tell him the difference between a factual straight report and a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: Why would Mr. Culhane write to the Commissioner, given his factual role, lacing it in adjectives that were detrimental to a person, whose role was complementary to his role? He refers to a person's lack of respect for an acting deputy commissioner. It is as if Mr. Culhane was defending the force rather than defending the integrity of the job that was supposed to be done.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: The point I am trying to make is that one does not use this type of language when giving an account of a meeting. There are some journalists in the Gallery who will explain that to Mr. Culhane. They have to write factual reports about what happens here today. If the editor tells them to write a colour piece they will use adjectives. Mr. Culhane is an executive director of finance and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: It looks like one to me. Mr. Culhane refers to Mr. Barrett's "usual sweeping style" and what one elicits from that is Mr. Culhane has a prejudice against this man from the get go, using words like "stopped short of calling him a liar" and "a palpable shock of silence in the room". Why was there a palpable shock of silence in the room?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: He has told the committee that he has had to FOI stuff.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: What disturbs me Mr. Culhane is that there is a theme developing, both on the day of our previous meeting, the material in the newspapers in the interim period and what is happing this morning, that this will all be explained away under the catchall, abstract term "culture". By putting a title on it and categorising it, nobody gets named individually and like so many other things here,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: Without rehashing the report, Mr. Kelly makes a point of referring to this culture at the root of the problem in his conclusions. He said earlier that as an extensive part of his audit, he spent three months at Templemore, talking to people - not just looking at the balance sheets - and getting the background behind the figures. Mr. Kelly said in his opening remarks that the culture may...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: When Mr. Kelly states that it may still exist in An Garda Síochána, will he elaborate on that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Shane Cassells: It goes to the heart of the matter.

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