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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I thank the committee for the opportunity to present the 2023 Estimates for my Department’s group of Votes. I am joined by the Minister of State with responsibility for public procurement and eGovernment, Deputy Ossian Smyth. The group comprises a significant number of Votes, including Vote 11 - public expenditure, national development plan delivery, and reform; Vote 12 -...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I will begin with Deputy Farrell's questions on the management of the BAR. Currently, it has a total of €5 billion in 2018 pricing. The eligibility period for the expenditure runs from 1 January 2020 to 31 December 2023. The bulk of our allocation will come through pre-financing. We have received approximately €361 million for 2021 and €276 million for 2022. I will...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I will go back to Deputy Farrell's question on the Brexit adjustment reserve fund before I respond to the question she has just put to me. In terms of spending to date on it, provision has been made in budgets 2022 and 2023 for Brexit mitigation projects which will be included in the final BAR claim. These amount to €390 million overall, and further allocations will also be required...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: It is up and running. It does not necessarily play a role in seeking protected disclosures. Its role is to be the appropriate and strong recipient of disclosures and to manage them in a way that is in accordance with the legislation to which the deputy just referred.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I am sorry, I missed the Deputy's question. I was just looking at a figure.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes, that is correct.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Regarding the figures on the costs, the vast majority of that cost is simply going into the setting up of the office and the work that is needed to make sure it is fully operational. Regarding free legal aid, it is up to the office to come to me and my Department and make any proposals it wishes to ensure that those who make protected disclosures are not deterred by a high level of legal...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: With the Department, I am currently evaluating what steps can be taken to deal with the issue of delivery. The increased level of capital investment within our economy in 2016 stood at well below €4 billion. For 2023, it is just above €12 billion, so over seven years it has tripled. I want to look at the steps we can take that will lead to the spending of that capital...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I see two areas of change. The first will be through the operation of the oversight body for the NDP. In that body, which consists of senior civil servants, the two Departments the Deputy referenced already are appropriately and strongly represented. The issue I want to consider is whether the oversight body is playing a proper remit in the delivery of capital spending inside a given year....

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: The truth is that there is always a risk it will only be a change of name. That risk is there, and the Secretary General and I are very much aware of it. That is why, in answering a question Deputy Mairéad Farrell put to me, I made the point that this is a change of name that has to become a change of mandate. It is something I am determined to do. As a first stage, I will be...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Is the Deputy referring to the Brexit adjustment reserve unit?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I understand the recruitment is complete. There are eight individuals in the Brexit adjustment reserve unit and ten in the NRRP unit .

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: I make two points in respect of the Deputy's excellent question. The first is that there are inevitably going to be trade-offs between how we respond to legitimate challenges and issues of the past, including those of yesterday, recent years or further back, and how we meet the needs of today, let alone in the context of how we invest in the future. Those trade-offs may not always be...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes. There is little doubt that how the Government responded in respect of properties that were ruined by mica in turn framed the response it had to make with regard to dealing with apartments that were affected by defects. When you make a decision in one area, it frames decisions that you may make in the same area in the future. That is why then when the Government gets into issues...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: In regard to the governance and legal issues referred to by Deputy Farrell, overall across the Government they very much sit with the individual line Departments. We monitor overall governance issues and become involved in issues in which the Department has a very explicit role. In terms of the balance between the management of public expenditure and the fulfilment of the obligations...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2023
Vote 11 - Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
Vote 43 - Office of the Government Chief Information Officer (Revised)
(8 Feb 2023)

Paschal Donohoe: There are three different areas of consideration. The first is the question of how, within the existing structure and resources, we can get to a point at which we are not just looking at how we manage and even contain expenditure within a given year but also how that expenditure translates into the delivery of a small number of very important capital projects for the Government. At this...

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