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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Is it the salary then?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Is the Deputy asking Mr. Moloney to make a------

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: The Ministers and Secretaries Act is something this committee is interested in. We are having a paper prepared on it by the Library and Research Service of the Houses. We have asked for some guidance and information from Mr. Moloney's Department. That would come under its area of remit. We want to take that Act and other amending Acts down through the years to get an understanding of how...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: If there was a change in the legislation it would be Mr. Moloney's Department that would bring forward that legislation.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: The independent review panel could look at-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: -----how individuals are held responsible. The idea of the Minister accepting all of the blame and all the rest of it could be addressed.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Has that independent review panel being asked to look at this?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: When is it expected to report back?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: I presume the members of it will talk about the salary and the terms and conditions for the overall work. How was increasing the salary of one Secretary General by €86,000, or whatever it was, taken by the public sector leadership board?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Was there any concern around it? I mean that in a way-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Okay. That is fine. It was agreed. How it was agreed is a little bit disserving. Because of that arrangement, is it time to look at individual Departments and to offer more to one departmental Secretary General than another because of the volume of work, the extent of the Department or the budget it has?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: That once-off increase would not be the norm in terms of the process. There is a different process there, is there not?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: The €86,000 increase was not part of a formal process. That is not how Secretaries General get increases, is it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: From that process we saw there is no process currently in place. No benchmarking was done, for example, of similar positions across Europe. No one can explain where that figure came from, the make-up of it, or how that figure was arrived at. That is why I am asking Mr. Moloney about this. It is clear there is no process. It is clear there is no information around how that figure was...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: The broader issue. It is simply not good practice. In terms of the performance of Secretaries General, there is the leadership board but I was a bit taken aback to find out during the course of our engagement with Mr. Fraser, when he was in before us, that there is no single boss. To whom are the Secretaries General answerable?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: I understand that part of it but I mean within their own workplace, as it where. I always thought Mr. Fraser would have been the all-powerful Secretary General who would control the other Secretaries General or tick them off or praise them, as needs be, but he said that is not the case. Does Mr. Moloney think there is a need for perhaps an all-powerful Secretary General who would have as...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Has Mr. Moloney looked at any vision of an alternative to what we have at present?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: Most of the responsibility falls to the Minister, however.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: I have rarely heard of a Secretary General being asked to resign but I regularly hear calls for Ministers to resign. Sometimes, when you look at the issue, that may not be appropriate. Secretaries General are held to account by the Committee of Public Accounts but that is about it. I do not see anything else. The Committee of Public Accounts is still in business. If everything was...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Secondment Policy in the Civil and Public Service: Engagement with Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (15 Jun 2022)

John McGuinness: To return to Mr. Moloney Department, he said, in his opening statement, "my Department's role in sanctioning secondments ..." therefore, he sanctions them. What does he look at when sanctioning a particular secondment?

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