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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General separately - he does not have to answer it today - to give us a note on how many bodies within our remit and within his remit are bodies corporate under the 1961 legislation, so that we can know the nature of an organisation. Are there many of these?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Does the Comptroller and Auditor General audit them all?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: An informal committee. There is the impairment issue with regard to €40 million of assets in the balance sheet at the end of 2012 in the accounts we are talking about. The board says in its report that it is looking at the impairment situation. The Comptroller and Auditor General referred to the uncertainty of that matter in his report. Does the board have an estimated figure at...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Will the Comptroller and Auditor General have to restate the 2012 accounts, or will he make the note-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: When the Comptroller and Auditor General comes to do the 2013 accounts, an asset that was worth €40 million will now be worth €6 million. For comparative purposes, will the Comptroller and Auditor General have to restate the 2012 accounts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: The accounts are completed on a going-concern basis. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated this. What guarantee did he have of the funding to guarantee the going concern?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Let us assume it will continue. But is that a good enough way to produce accounts - on the assumption that the Estimate next year will cover it? Normally, one would look for a little more reassurance than that to ensure the money will be there next year.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: After the year end-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: You waited until February 2014. I spotted that. You were safe for-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: On the going-concern accounting basis, I can understand why the Comptroller and Auditor General thinks that, because the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform has time and again spoken about ring-fencing a portion of the proceeds of the privatisation of the National Lottery licence for this project. We have heard it a hundred times. I ask Mr. O'Brien from the Department of Public...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I am being told - which I would always have understood to be the case - that the funds from the proceeds of the National Lottery have gone into the Central Fund of the Exchequer. I would have thought they could not be anywhere else. Therefore, this euphemism of ring-fencing is more of a political thing. There is no ring-fenced area in the Cental Fund. Has the Comptroller and Auditor...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: There is no ring-fenced fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: The Comptroller and Auditor General will understand this. It goes to the heart of the going-concern accounting basis. We all hope the money from the sale of the lottery licence will be there when construction starts in 2016 and 2017. However, it is clear that there is no ring-fenced fund, although we have been told hundreds of times that there would be such a fund. I am not asking the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: Walk away.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: The board is also responsible - it is in the note on page 2 - for safeguarding the assets of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board. How do the members of the board feel about having inherited assets of €40 million and coming back to us with €35 million worth of them gone at the end of 2013? How does that represent safeguarding assets? We all know there is a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I thank the witnesses for coming here today. I have a few short questions. Much of the ground has been well covered already. I would like to have something clarified in my own mind. I know the development board was established by SI 246/2007. What is its legal standing? Is it a company limited by shares or by guarantee? I cannot get information on its legal standing by looking at its...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I want to simplify it for the public. We need to bear in mind that we are talking to the public here. I know the board was established under an establishment order, as set out in SI 246/2007. Can Mr. Farragher explain to the public what that means in plain English? People understand that a company has shares, is limited by guarantee or runs a community employment scheme. Is the board...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: That is the operation, but-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
2012 Accounts of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board
(23 Oct 2014)

Seán Fleming: I do not mind who answers the question.

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