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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: The Revenue Commissioners have broad scope in respect of that to suggest that somebody is appealing through the system as a result of tax avoidance.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: Therefore, Revenue can force individuals it believes are using the court system as a means of tax avoidance to pay their full liability up front at the end of the appeal to the commissioner. Does that not go to the core and resolve many of the issues in terms of the amount of money outstanding?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: If the legislation were to go through as the heads of Bill suggest, what would it do for the existing appeals in the system - the 600 that the officials have suggested have been there for five years and others that have been there for ten years? Does it impact on them or are they still allowed to stay on the course they are on?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: It will not be possible to make an appeal to the Circuit Court outside the tax appeals commission, but when an individual wins an appeal in the Circuit Court, does Revenue have the option of appealing the judgment to the High Court on a point of law?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: In the case of the six appeals upheld by the Circuit Court which overturned the decision of the Appeal Commissioners, did Revenue appeal any of them to the High Court on a point of law?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: On the €770 million tied up in assessments or appeals on which decisions have not yet been reached, as a rule of thumb what percentage of the disputed amounts would be returned to Revenue? Is it 50%? Clearly, it is not possible to predict the decision in an individual case, but in general how much success has Revenue enjoyed in bringing appeals?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: Will it be possible to investigate cases that were appealed at some stage to give an indication of the proportion returned? Are we looking at a potential figure of €400 million or €500 million based on previous experience? Is there is a fee for appeals to the commission?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: Has Revenue sought any provision that has not appeared in the heads?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: This is related to our earlier discussion about whether payments should be more up-front subsequent to the appeals process.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: Will Mr. Smyth make that submission available to the committee?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: I apologise; we have it, but I have not seen it. I wish to raise some minor issues pertaining to disqualifications. There is a big issue in respect of bankruptcy. If we are bankrupt, we are disqualified from doing a number of things. The section on disqualifications refers to arrangements with creditors. I do not know how broad such arrangements will be, but if a case is appealed to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: Although I understand, it is a throwback to a different type of Ireland when we did not have, as we do today, 150,000 people in arrears with their mortgages, let alone small business people who are in arrangements with their creditors. These may be very noble, honourable people and it may bring a bit of realism to what is happening. It is a bit too much. I have raised the following matter...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I have them all to myself today, apart from the Vice Chairman. While the committee agrees to a lot of different hearings, many members then fail to turn up. I acknowledge that Deputy Michael McGrath is attending to banking inquiring matters and I have been caught up in some of those as well. The core area the witnesses have in common with one...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: I wonder how big an issue this is. I am unsure whether the witnesses are aware of this but I mentioned a case earlier that already had been mentioned on the record here in which an Appeal Commissioner overturned a decision of Revenue and which involved two former Taoisigh through the appointment and the person involved. Questions were raised on that case but we are not here to adjudicate on...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: As Ms O'Brien mentioned, all of a taxpayer's data would be in the public domain, bar his or her name. Is she suggesting she would like to see all of the data, bar the name of the taxpayer concerned, in the public domain?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: I will ask a question which I will also ask the other delegates. Is it not the case that tax law is laid down in legislation and that if one decides not to pay one's tax liability - I am on record as not having paid my local property tax voluntarily which is being deducted from me at source - one is in breach of the law? Therefore, the Revenue Commissioners who are empowered by law to...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: That is interesting and Ms O'Brien makes a strong case. In a dispute between an individual and Revenue does the individual have no ability to engage with Revenue as it comes up with that determination? Is it not the case that the individual is engaging with it and that, therefore, there is a confidential process in which that engagement with Revenue happens, directly or indirectly, through...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: I have been thinking about what the witnesses have been saying on whether it should be held in public. It is a key point that the three witnesses have raised. While Mr. Keegan referred to the sophistication of the members of the public, with which I agree, I also agree with Ms O'Brien that when someone's name is associated with the Revenue Commissioners there is an automatic suspicion that...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: It is interesting that Ms O'Brien referred to delaying tactics by a possible 1% of those involved in this process. I am not involved and have no experience in this area, but Revenue is saying there is evidence of this problem and it is the taxpayer who loses out. Revenue has provided the numbers. A determination issued and it was found that in some 600 cases, five years have elapsed since...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Draft Heads of Finance (Tax Appeals Commission) Bill: Discussion (27 Jan 2015)

Pearse Doherty: No one is suggesting that.

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