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Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Even though I am around here a while I had missed that bit in the past year and a half. I have never heard anyone say it to me in the street that motor tax would go into Irish Water. The Comptroller and Auditor General had clarified the matter.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: I am a bit surprised. It is a funny outcome. It is not included in the Vote or the local government fund. The committee engaged in quite an extensive debate on the ceilings relating to voted expenditure for the 2015 to 2017 period. Will Mr. Heffernan indicate what else is not included in the context of those expenditure ceilings? We know the position with regard to the Central Fund but...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: My question relates to the expenditure ceilings that were published. I have been informed that the local government fund is not contemplated within those ceilings. What other major funds via which the State expends money are not included within the expenditure ceilings? Most people would have presumed that voted expenditure would include the total amounts expended by Departments. I...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: What other funds are not included?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Heffernan has explained the position with regard to the local government fund. What other funds to which members of the public contribute by way of taxation are not included in the expenditure ceiling report that people had understood to deal with all Government expenditure with the exception of that relating to the Central Fund?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: So it did come under the expenditure ceiling?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Is it possible for a report to be sent to the committee on the funds involved and the number of millions or billions per annum which were not included under the expenditure ceilings?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Yes, the different funds. We are inquiring about one or two funds at this meeting but there could be more which are not included.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Earlier when I asked-----

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Am I correct in stating that approximately €1.5 billion was paid into the local government fund last year and that some €1 billion - two thirds - of that came from motor tax?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: So it is fair to say that two thirds of the €439 million paid to Irish Water came from motor tax receipts, something which I originally did not realise.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: I am sure Mr. John McCarthy can understand how people are going to feel about this. There is a valid case to be made with regard to the fact that we already pay for water services through taxation. Now, we are going to have to pay for them by means of paying water rates and Mr. John McCarthy has just stated that we will also be paying for them by means of motor tax.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: So three sources of funding are now being used to pay for Irish Water: money from the Central Fund, which is obtained by means of taxation, is used; two thirds of the €439 million subvention - approximately €250 million - is being paid out of motor tax receipts; and a smaller amount is going to be paid by people via water rates. People already have a problem with paying on the...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: Would it not be better to use money from the Department's Vote for this purpose, as opposed taking it from the motor tax paid into the local government fund? Does Mr. McCarthy see the situation we are in now? People will be surprised to know that, on top of everything else, up to €300 million of their motor tax has gone to Irish Water.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: It is getting more bizarre as time goes on. That is all I can say. I have two other quick questions. Mr. McCarthy stated earlier that the whole purpose of this was to get it off balance sheet and that the procedure dealing with EUROSTAT and the CSO was a separate procedure. What does this mean? Who spoke to the CSO on behalf of Mr. McCarthy's Department, which was outsourcing Irish...

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: It is the one process.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: It cannot do that until the value of the assets is sorted out.

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: When does Mr. McCarthy expect to have a view from the CSO on this?

Public Accounts Committee: Vote 25 - Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government
Chapter 6 - Land Aggregation Scheme
Chapter 7 - Matters Arising from Audit of Vote 25 - Environment, Community and Local Government in Relation to Water Services
(5 Feb 2015)

Seán Fleming: The conservation grant has been mentioned a few times. Can I have a quick rundown on who gets the conservation grant? Will householders who have their own septic tank and private water supply and do not have to pay anything to Irish Water get the conservation grant?

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