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Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: Correct.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: For the increase.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: We have heard that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: But Mr. Carroll has the document. He is giving the impression that the document is there. It is just that he does not have it to hand as he speaks. Is the document to hand this evening?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: Could Mr. Carroll help us out here? We want to cut to the chase. Mr. Carroll is now saying that he does not have the document to hand but when I press him on it, he says that the document does not exist. He cannot tell us that he does not have it to hand-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: We are on the one side in respect of this. We could start by acknowledging that we are starting from where we are, which is that this documentary evidence has not existed in the past, it was not produced each year and let us start producing it now. We just want an acknowledgement that the €3.5 billion collected went into central funds. Mr. Carroll is stating it. We know that. I...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: There was no mention of that. The Minister said that he produced a sheet of paper showing where it is going, which might be fine, but saying it is ring-fenced is an attempt to give an impression that it will go into a separate fund like the social insurance fund when it will not. The Minister never mentioned that. Has he mentioned that it will be a separate hypothecated fund? That has not...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: It has not been stated that it will be a hypothecated fund. That is where we are.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: When Mr. Carroll said he did not have it to hand-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: I will read the paragraph in front of us on the screen. There is a footnote stating that a European Commission report from 2017 entitled "Analysis of the use of Auction Revenues by the Member States" noted that Ireland is one of the ten member states where revenue raised through the auction of allowances is not earmarked or ring fenced in its budget and that along with the other nine member...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: We understand fuel poverty, but if more of the money being received can be earmarked, ring-fenced - one can use whatever word one likes - for initiatives that will reduce our dependence on fossil fuels, that will be the ultimate benefit and where we should be trying to get to. We are here to add to the debate. The public should be able to see transparency and accountability in respect of...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: Did the State receive any money this year, 2019, under the emissions trading scheme? If it received €140 million, what happened this-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: The State has received €114 million. There is an obvious question. That was paid by some of the people with the permits who pollute away - by the way, back at European level. Where did that €114 million go this year? Presumably, it went into the Central Fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: It was not earmarked for climate change initiatives, despite the EU telling us in a report two and a half years ago, "Along with nine other member states, Ireland was also deemed to provide a low level of detail on the application of revenue to projects aimed at reducing emissions." Two and a half years on, we have another €114 million this year plus last year's €114 million...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: I will make a final observation. This is not on the same issue, but a year ago, we made a recommendation that the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform meet systematically with those Departments in respect of which major Supplementary Estimates are required each year - for example, the Department of Health. The HSE was the first one. It has now set up a health monitoring budget...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Carroll understands where I am coming from. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform has produced a document for us that we had here on the previous occasion, Staff Paper 2018: An Introduction to the Implementation of Green Budgeting in Ireland, dated December of last year. The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform will probably have the role in pulling this together but we...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: I accept that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: On the Estimates that will come before the various sectoral committees -----

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: -----the 2020 Estimates have not yet been passed, or the Revised Estimates have not yet been published. They will be published early in the new year after the passing of the Finance Bill and those sorts of items. Is there scope for this matter to be properly kick-started by Oireachtas committees during the Estimates debates?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Accounts of the Public Services
Chapter 9 - Greenhouse Gas-Related Financial Transactions: Discussion (Resumed)
(21 Nov 2019)

Seán Fleming: It is evident that we are all in the same corner. We are frustrated at the lack of transparency. Although we might appear to give the officials a hard time, it is to encourage everyone in the system to move in the direction in which we all need to move. There is no criticism; we are all just a bit frustrated at the slow pace. That is why we called the officials to a special meeting, to...

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