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Topical Issue Debate: Disability Support Services (31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: What is the order?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Having listened to the evidence given by the witnesses today and on the last day, it is unbelievable that it took until May last year when Mr. Kelly really got to the nuts and bolts of what happened to find out about the mismanagement that has gone on since as far back as the college's upgrade to a third level college in the 1980s. In that length of time cover ups, mismanagement and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Mr. Culhane is the executive director of financial services. That is a high position within the system.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Would it not be his responsibility to make sure? Is this passing the buck?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Even though he may not be able to instruct a deputy commissioner, did Mr. Culhane realise the seriousness of the situation in Templemore? Did he realise how serious the mismanagement and mis-governance was there?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Did Mr. Culhane close a blind eye to it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Reference was made to organisational culture. Mr. Kelly had said in his report - under chronology three - that on Wednesday, June 17 there was a staff meeting of the CAO. He said:I raised my concerns about the management of the college given what I learned at my meeting there the previous Thursday ... [and that] the Commissioner and all attendees [should be ] very concerned about any poor...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Is Mr. Culhane sure that Mr. Kelly has this statement wrong?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: I am sorry, I mixed that up.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Here we have two witnesses contradicting one another and we have it in black and white in front of us. We are investigating this and we have two witnesses, sitting side by side, contradicting one another. The taxpayer is probably looking at this. How do the witnesses stand over this?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Did Mr. Culhane mention the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Did Mr. Culhane mention the Comptroller and Auditor General? Mr. Barrett said that "Michael Culhane pointed out that it was felt that these matters were best kept away from internal audit and would be very serious if they were to come into the view of the controller [sic] and auditor general." Did Mr. Culhane say that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: So Mr. Culhane did not say any of those two things?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: You say that. Is Mr. Culhane saying that Mr. Barrett has his facts wrong?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: I do not know. There is something wrong somewhere. There are question marks. I am no judge and jury but there are serious question marks over that statement and over what is being put down here.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: We have two professional people sitting side by side giving two different versions of evidence. Can anyone round that square?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: Are they on record?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: To finish off what we were dealing with a minute ago, I want to ask all the witnesses whether there is a total breakdown of trust between the witnesses present in regard to all of the evidence that has been given so far and between the Garda authorities, the Commissioner and the assistant commissioners. Is there total mistrust within the whole organisation at the moment, both among the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 20 - Garda Síochána - Internal Audit Report on Garda College, Templemore (Resumed)
(31 May 2017)

Bobby Aylward: This is a little more than healthy.

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