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Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: I would encourage the company to do that.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: If it was Mr. Swords's money and someone who did a job for him ripped him off, would he continue dealing with that person, not ask for the money back and only decide on whether to take a court case down the line? Would he pretend it had never happened and just carry on, albeit being more careful about paying the person in future? No one would look after his or her own money in that manner.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: We expect that level of care for public funds by every State body, not just the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: This gives people a carte blanche to do what they like to public bodies because the bodies can do nothing until court cases years down the road found those people to have been wrong.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: Will the HSE review all of its "complex" procurement contracts and ask a commercial lawyer to draft a suitable paragraph to be inserted in future versions so that if there is a basis to believe that there has been wrongdoing, the HSE has the ability to cancel the contract?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: Mr. Swords has not yet spoken to the whistleblower. No wonder the HSE does not have the evidence to do it.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: He said that he had not spoken to the whistleblower.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: I am sorry. I misheard Mr. Swords. He did talk to the whistleblower.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: He did not talk to the whistleblower.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: That is surprising.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: Regarding the company that Mr. O'Brien mentioned, Eurosurgical, and direct dealings with a HSE hospital, will Mr. O'Brien discuss the information given to me to the effect that the company was taking surgical equipment from a clinic - I will name it if Mr. O'Brien wishes - to Tallaght hospital to be surgically cleaned before being reused in a clinic in Dublin when they should not have been...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: I will tell Mr. O'Brien about it later.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: If the HSE had spoken to the whistleblower, it might have known about this. Beyond everything else, it is a public health matter. What are the guidelines for people employed by the HSE accepting benefits from those who supply goods and services to it? I am referring to kickbacks, vouchers, holidays, weekends away, etc. What are the ethical rules in this regard?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: Mr. O'Brien will explain who paid for his trip to a recent conference in Madrid that was sponsored by a company that supplies clinical equipment. He knows its name.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: I find it unusual that there is a major controversy about someone down the line in the HSE accepting a voucher, weekend away, holiday or the like from a supplier when the chief executive may accept flights to and from Madrid and accommodation from a different supplier. Does Mr. O'Brien see why I believe that there is a contradiction or hypocrisy? Does he understand how this looks?

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: Yes, let us.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I will revert to this issue when I conclude. Does Mr. O'Brien believe it to be good practice for any State body, or senior executive therein, that will be paying a supplier certain amounts - I do not know how much - for services and goods to have flights abroad and accommodation paid for by that supplier? In future, public servants should not accept flights from suppliers. If a...

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: I see the point.

Public Accounts Committee: Health Service Executive Financial Statements 2014
2014 Annual Report and Appropriation Accounts of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 39: Health Service Executive
Chapter 19: Compliance with Prompt Payment Legislation in the Health Sector
Chapter 20: Management of Private Patient Income in the Health Sector
Chapter 21: Control over the Supply of High-Tech Drugs and Medicines
(22 Oct 2015)

Seán Fleming: I am happy about that, but Mr. O'Brien can understand how some people might view one person further down the line-----

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