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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: PSPR

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: That is exactly it.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: No, what I said to Deputy Sherlock was that the matter of public service pensions will be taken into account in the work of the public service pay commission. We will take that into account in the negotiations that we have in the run up to the summer. As has been the case in the past, we will be negotiating with the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. That is...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: It is something that will be considered as part of the broader choice the Government will need to make on the collective agreement. To give an example of how that has worked in the past, which I know the Acting Chairman is familiar with, we have a faster pace of PSPR reduction than we do of PRD reduction. All of that flowed out of decisions and choices that were made across the period of...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I can give the Acting Chairman a further update on this matter. Now I can give him the split between savings generated by lower levels of pay and savings generated by the PRD. As I said earlier, the overall value of the Lansdowne Road agreement savings are €1.4 billion. The exact split is €692 million-----

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: Excuse me. My words were wrong there. The FEMPI reductions at the end of the Lansdowne Road agreement are €692 million in pay savings and €720 million from the impact of the PRD, which gives a cumulative figure of €1.4 billion. When the Lansdowne Road agreement is implemented, as is being done at the moment, and the pay restoration that is committed to takes place,...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I will have to come back to the Acting Chairman on that.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: We have two different figures there. We have the €50 million, which was a consequence of the Labour Court recommendation. That is being dealt with in two ways. The Department of Justice and Equality has already outlined in answers to priority questions asked by the Acting Chairman's colleague, Deputy O'Callaghan, and perhaps also by the Acting Chairman, the itemised savings it has...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: There is no change in the figures I published as part of the Revised Estimates. They proposed total gross voted expenditure of €58,072 million, an increase of €43 million or 0.07% of the €58 billion set out in the expenditure report for 2017.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: It will be the equivalent of that figure.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: Breaching it would form part of the review process which is part of the excessive deficit procedure, in which we continue to participate. The parties to the agreement, the IMF, the European Commission and the ECB, would then offer a view on the matter.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes, but we have not breached the expenditure ceiling in recent years. In 2016, when I had direct responsibility for expenditure ceilings by Department, although the Minister for Finance set the overall figure, we delivered the figures we had said we would deliver. The underspend at the end of 2016 was ahead of where we expected it to be.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: Absolutely. Total expenditure across the period was €55.980 billion which was inside the expenditure ceiling we had set out at the start of the year.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: No. In the middle of the year I went to the Oireachtas and sought approval to change the expenditure ceiling for the Departments of Health and Justice and Equality. We increased the expenditure ceiling for the Department of Health by just under €500 million and for the Department of Justice and Equality by between €40 million and €50 million. Owing to events in the...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: The management of ceilings at national level is the responsibility of the Department of Finance and I deal with their implementation. In 2015 there was huge damage caused by flooding and bridges had fallen down which needed to be fixed. It required €110 million to be found in January or February. The rules on Estimates and expenditure ceilings permit some change but only in narrow...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: No. The European Commission would offer a view after the event.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: It is as I have outlined. There are very narrow opportunities to change expenditure ceilings and I am not aware of any event or development which would lead me to have to approve any. I send a clear message to my colleagues in government on a daily basis that they have their money for 2017 and that the Minister for Finance and I expect them to deliver their plans within these figures. The...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: First and foremost, it would have to come from within its Vote. If a Minister makes a certain policy choice, he or she will have to agree the expenditure consequences with me. There is a narrow set of circumstances relating to exceptional events in which a small change can be permitted, but I am not planning anything along those lines.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 11 - Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Revised)
Vote 12 - Superannuation and Retired Allowances (Revised)
Vote 14 - State Laboratory (Revised)
Vote 15 - Secret Service (Revised)
Vote 17 - Public Appointments Service (Revised)
Vote 18 - National Shared Services Office (Revised)
Vote 19 - Office of the Ombudsman (Revised)
Vote 39 - Office of Government Procurement (Revised)
(9 Mar 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: We look at these things on a quarterly basis because swings can occur month by month which make it impossible to analyse. My Department has agreed the quarterly roll-out of expenditure ceilings and I am not aware of any concern.

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