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Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: I will ask a broader question then. Which of the organisations before us made the decision? Was it the Department or the Central Bank?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: That is incorrect. The auditors are independent of the Government and its resources. The company in question was also independent of the Government and its resources, yet somehow €30 million, or in fact more, of public money was on the table. It is a very simple question - who made the decision to make that public money available?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General could be helpful.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: Is it correct that ultimately it would have been withdrawn from a fund managed by the Central Bank?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: So ultimately it was on the Central Bank's watch that the money was withdrawn from the fund it managed. It may have been directed to do so, but does Mr. Molloy accept that is where it fell? The Central Bank manages the insurance compensation fund and the money came from that fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: The insurance compensation fund is a public resource. As Deputy Burke says, it was used to defend a case against another party. It would be reasonable to expect that the outcome of the case would be of public interest, both to the Committee of Public Accounts and to the Central Bank. The money came from a fund administered by the Central Bank. I imagine the Central Bank has an interest...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: The Central Bank is aware of the settlement figure. Is Mr. Molloy precluded by virtue of the settlement with PwC from revealing that? Is there a confidentiality clause? Why in God's name did a public body enter into a settlement which precluded the Central Bank from releasing the final figure of the settlement when there was public money involved in defending the case? Regardless of all...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: Does Mr. Molloy, as the manager of the fund, accept that he effectively handed money over but he did not have any real control over it? The Central Bank was not party to the settlement. Were any conditions put in place in handing the money over to ensure that we would have some transparency and value for money? I do not expect Mr. Molloy to defend the decision as he was not party to it but...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: They could equally have been lost to the ICF if the case or if the settlement had gone the other way.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: It is not for the first time that they are acting independently with our money. That is exactly my point. The State provided the assurance there would be funds to defend the case but I do not see the oversight arrangements that were put in place for that decision. Mr. Molloy is right, the Central Bank is the bookkeeper for the account. That is what he is effectively saying but my question...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: My understanding was the ICF was------

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: I am not asking-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: I am not asking about mortgage interest rates, I am not asking about borrowers, I am not going outside the remit. What we asked was very clear.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: I will come back in later.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: We are dealing with two issues here. There are people here who have information they do not feel at liberty to share with the committee and that is really concerning, or they cannot point us to where we would be able to know that. Second, there appear to be people in the room who were not prepared for today's Committee of Public Accounts meeting because it was very clear we were going to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: Does the figure of €881,000 come out of the insurance compensation fund but ultimately find its way in the profits of the Central Bank?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: Can I ask a ten-second question?

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: Yes, sorry. Is there a structural issue there? With the separation of powers in the Houses, we are not in a position to criticise the Courts Service. Yet, it is administering a public fund and it would appear that it is the only body making decisions on that fund.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: With respect to Deputy Dillon, we are heading into the break in five minutes time. I suggest that the committee needs to meet in private session to discuss what has happened this morning. I agree with Deputy Hourigan's point. We need to suspend the meeting.

Public Accounts Committee: 2020 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General - Chapter 14: Assessment and Collection of Insurance Compensation Fund Levies
Report on Administration and Movement of the Insurance Compensation Fund for the year ended 31 December 2021
Comptroller and Auditor General Section 2 Report on Unauthorised release of funds from the Central Fund of the Exchequer
(23 Feb 2023)

Paul McAuliffe: In advance of the next session. We need to have a discussion on this as a committee and we should do that in private session in advance of the break.

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