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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Yes, but in reaching any decision it is important that the unions are also there representing the staff. There is that ongoing engagement. It is not a trick question. It operates the same as a company.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: The point I am making is that going down through this work and the changes that might be spoken about there are many more parties involved than just the Minister and the Secretary General. Many other strands come together to work in the interest of the Department. That is the only point I am making on that. Is there a need for a Secretary General and a Department that would be in control...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: If for some reason there was an issue with a Secretary General, is it then for the Minister to bring it to the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and then to Government?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: What is the other route?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Ministers have that political ability to raise an issue about a Secretary General's performance. There may be a clash of personality and all sorts of things that can happen in the workplace today. However, that is generally channelled through the Minister to the Government.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Mr. Moloney has spent a number of years in the Civil Service. In his position looking back, can he ever remember a Secretary General who was fired for any reason? Was anyone ever sacked, even down through the various lower levels of the Civil Service? I am trying to determine how effective the system of employment is. Based on the seven-year contract, regardless of what happens, the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: To go lower than the level of Secretary General, is it fair to say that no one has been sacked?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: In terms of the workings of the Committee of Public Accounts, I have seen and read the many reports over the years that have been sent to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. As for some of these reports on protecting taxpayers' money and getting greater efficiency in terms of the spend, I will not say they have been ignored because somebody obviously has read them but in terms...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Why does Mr. Moloney think there is not much change then? Going back to the second page in Mr. Moloney's submission, the Committee of Public Accounts and other committees are said to examine various aspects of a Department's work, make recommendations to either the line committee of the Department, or in the case of the Committee of Public Accounts, to the Department of Public Expenditure...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: They are never accepted. There is a huge volume of recommendations made through various reports, that have, by and large, been ignored. I have often asked this committee how many recommendations through all of the reports were made and how many of those were actually accepted. It would be a very worthwhile piece of work to do to find out. It tells you a lot about Departments if you take...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Yes, or assistant secretary general.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I do not remember anyone being taken in from the private sector.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: It is very close.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: If Mr. Moloney gets the number, I would like to see it.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: How long would it take, when one is in as PO, to get to Secretary General?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Mr. Moloney could have a stab at it there, we will say, for the sake of ten years.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: In the commercial world, a lot of change happens in five years and ten years.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I am making the point that we need to be more open. We need to do far more to attract people in. It needs to be addressed. I note recently they spoke about how the level of salary etc. needs to be looked at. Fine, if that is the case. If we can continue to open it up, get those within the service and give the potential to recruit outside from the private sector as well, that would help....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: To appoint the members of TLAC.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Does Mr. Moloney know, without giving names, are they all civil servants, ex-civil servants or from the private sector? What number are on TLAC and how many are from the private sector?

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