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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Mr. Moloney could have a stab at it there, we will say, for the sake of ten years.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: In the commercial world, a lot of change happens in five years and ten years.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I am making the point that we need to be more open. We need to do far more to attract people in. It needs to be addressed. I note recently they spoke about how the level of salary etc. needs to be looked at. Fine, if that is the case. If we can continue to open it up, get those within the service and give the potential to recruit outside from the private sector as well, that would help....

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: To appoint the members of TLAC.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Does Mr. Moloney know, without giving names, are they all civil servants, ex-civil servants or from the private sector? What number are on TLAC and how many are from the private sector?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Law, HR.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I want to move on to reports. Earlier we mentioned the Mullarkey and Rafter reviews.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: In doing those reports or in doing a review of a Department or taking an issue and dealing with it, what effort is made from within the senior Civil Service to ensure that there is real independence there from the private sector? One would often see people who worked previously for the HSE or previously for a Department and they are given a job to review something or other or to create a...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Have we ever compared ourselves to other jurisdictions? Mr. Moloney mentioned earlier on that in some countries they do it this way and that way. How do we compare with other jurisdictions? Are we at the top end of it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Is there a better model of administration out there or a mixture of how other countries might do their business as a state in order that we can improve ours? Has that comparison ever been made?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Okay. I refer to the outsourcing of parts of the work of a Department or an agency where, let us say, citizens information or some other organisation like that is created. Is that happening widely now in the organisation where there is a certain shedding of different responsibilities and they are being farmed out with new agencies being created? The big example would be the Department and...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Without naming any particular Department, let us consider a big-spending Department from which the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform wants greater accountability. IT is essential to do that. In such a case, does the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform get involved by telling the line Department we are not getting anywhere, we need greater transparency and accountability in...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Mr. Moloney mentioned the HSE and we can take it as an example. Considering the amount of money the HSE spends, is it not essential for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform to demand the type of IT infrastructure that would give the managers in the HSE and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform the necessary information? I attended a trade fair when I was Minister of...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: That part of it disappoints me a lot. In big organisations, one sometimes has to take steps to make sure the organisation is moving in the desired direction. It sometimes takes an intervention far greater than just cajoling. I would have thought there would be competition among civil servants to make their Departments the key players or the models to follow. I do not get the impression...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I see. So therefore-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I am not going to labour the part any further. There needs to be a step change in that area. I have come to the end of my questions and the areas in which I am interested. Does it take much time for officials to prepare for meetings like these?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: Is it a lot of hassle for people?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: It takes time.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I thank everyone for taking the time to be here and for the questions that have been put and answered. It is an interesting topic. I hope we can get this type of change as quickly as we can. I wish the witnesses well in their work.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Ministers and Secretaries Act 1924: Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (12 Oct 2022)

John McGuinness: I thank Mr. Moloney very much.

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