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Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: When Mr. Breen says "in its generality", is that related to, let us say, a scheme like CervicalCheck, or is he saying that, in a global sense, the State Claims Agency is saying to the HSE that this is an ongoing and recurrent risk?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: What is the response from the HSE when the State Claims Agency delivers advice like that? Does the HSE have a requirement to respond to the agency's advice?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: I am not asking about sanction power, but if the agency flags something for the Department or the HSE, does it have a requirement to respond as to how it is managing the risk the agency has flagged for it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Perhaps Dr. O'Keeffe could comment. When a risk is flagged to the HSE or the Department of Health, how do they respond to it? Do they respond with an answer of how they are going to deal with that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: I accept all that. There is a whole other area I want to get to. What I am asking is, when the agency gives advice, does it go into a black hole, the HSE or the Department thanks the agency and the advice is put it on a desk, or is the agency able to follow how they respond to the advice? I note, from previous sessions of the Committee of Public Accounts, that the Minister will take...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: For something that is so comprehensive as e-health records or records systems, that is a huge undertaking and a huge project. It probably relates to every single case the agency deals with in some small degree. How does the agency make that advice available? When has that happened and has the HSE responded?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: This is not a broad issue. It is a very specific project and the Department has said it is not particularly proceeding with it at present. There is no funding, no business case and no procurement. It is linked to a project that is long delayed. What is the agency saying about that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Hang on. On the basis of what you can say or what you are saying?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: That is a lot broader than saying we need e-health records to be more accurate in our reporting here. What Dr. O'Keeffe is describing is a lot broader.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: I accept that, but there is a very specific thread here that the State could address. I am asking if the State Claims Agency is outlining in great detail and accurately to the Department that this is an issue not in a general way, but in specific way.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: I think we might start to debate what is inductive or deductive reasoning. If the use of records is consistently an issue, then a more modern system does not seem like that much of a jump.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Does Dr. O'Keeffe think the agency might not be able to see the wood for the trees in that manner of operating?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Does the agency have the data on or track how many non-disclosure agreements, NDAs, it has advised the State to enter into over the course of a year, for example?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: The agency never initiates NDAs.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Does the agency track the data on how many it has entered into in conjunction with the plaintiff, for example?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Would it be safe to say that, in the view of the State Claims Agency, NDAs mostly arise in cases concerning medical negligence where private medical information would be made available, and that is the majority of them?

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: I want to come back to that issue later.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Deputy Catherine Murphy is ahead of me.

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: I would like to go back to Dr. O'Keeffe on the process by which the agency advises Departments on how to prevent the recurrence of incidents. In my time on the committee, I have struggled with the legal difference between "shall" and "may" because I am not a lawyer, it is not my background. It is in the legislation that the State Claims Agency shall or may advise. Will Dr. O'Keeffe comment...

Public Accounts Committee: 2021 Financial Statements of the State Claims Agency: Discussion
Chapter 20: Management of the Clinical Indemnity Scheme of the Report on the Accounts of Public Services 2021
(2 Mar 2023)

Neasa Hourigan: Is it "may" or "shall"?

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