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Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: And section 17.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I will take those questions in the order the Deputy asked them. The first matter he raised relates to the drafting piece, if I may call it that. The drafters inform me that when a word that should be defined is referenced more than once in the Bill, it then appears in the definitions section rather than the specific section. As "viability" appears in section 9 but also in section 17 - and...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I am sorry; I wrote that down too. The reason that is singular rather than plural, which is a point I came across also, is because each practitioner has to singularly do it. It is still a singular assessment, if the Deputy knows what I mean. The practitioner will have to assess the viability and the other person will also have to assess the viability. From the point of view of drafting,...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: Section 10 states, "A termination of pregnancy may be carried out in accordance with this section where 2 medical practitioners have examined ...", and it lists the reasons, therefore, they are the only circumstances in which a termination of pregnancy may be carried out. In other words, the termination may not be carried out in the other circumstances. That is the legal understanding of...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I will be brief. Doctors were asking me, my Department and our clinical advisers whether a baby was viable if it was technically possible to keep a foetus, a baby, alive on some form of equipment or machinery for a very long time. That opens a Pandora's box. Doctors understand very much, as we do, what we mean when we speak about viability and a fatal foetal abnormality. Clearly, we...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I am not a regular reader of the catechism.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I would never argue with Deputy O'Connell because she is one of my favourite members of the committee, but there has been a misunderstanding on this issue which I wish to clarify. This wording would have been of assistance in the Miss P case. All of the Deputy's arguments would be correct if the section stated "with extraordinary life-sustaining measures". If I was bringing forward a...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: As this is a very sensitive issue, I wish to be clear on the intention of this aspect of the legislation. Of course, it is the case that when a baby is born, any doctor in the country would move heaven and earth to try to keep that baby alive and care for him or her, but that is not what this discussion is about. Rather, it concerns a situation where there is a threat of serious harm to the...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: That is the test of viability. In such a case, the baby would not yet have been born. Accidentally or otherwise, the Deputy painted a picture of a baby being born in Ireland and a doctor deciding not to do everything possible to save his or her life. That concept is alien to the health service. Of course, it will do everything possible in such cases. The amendment relates to the...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: The legislation states "without extraordinary life-sustaining measures".

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I do not wish to talk about Deputy Tóibín's family for his own personal reasons. We must remember the head of the Bill where the definition is outlined. This is where there is a serious risk to a woman's health or life. This is not the broader argument on viability in general. This is a woman who is probably lying in a hospital bed or, indeed, in the back of an ambulance being...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: -----or there are serious risks to her health. This is not the general discussion about viability in the pregnancy where, thank God, the woman is well. This is where the woman could die. In that sense, the conversation is much more prescriptive and restrictive because it only relates to head No. 10 of the Bill. I wish to point out to Deputy Tóibín that this is not the general...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: There is probably great excitement that this woman is pregnant and going to have a baby but all of a sudden some terrible tragedy has hit the family whereby this woman is in a very dire situation, for which I know we all have compassion. That is the situation we are talking about, not the general situation without specific indication or pre-12 weeks so, in that sense, it is quite different....

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: No.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I do not think that is what I am doing. It is certainly not what we are endeavouring to do. We are attempting to do what Dr. Boylan told this committee. Every other doctor probably told the committee a variation thereof. If a pregnancy reaches viability, except under the emergency head which I want to come back to in a minute because it feeds into this conversation, the baby will be...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: Yes but, still on the Deputy's point, if there is a medical emergency - and remember we are talking about the section on health and life here, not the generality-----

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: I think it is. The Deputy thinks it is not, but I think it is.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: Sure.

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: No, it does not. I do not mean to interrupt the Deputy but it says that viability is defined in terms of not going above and beyond any of the kit that would normally be used. We have talked a lot about the chilling effect. It is to prevent that doctor having the chilling effect of being concerned that where, in theory, he or she could do something that would keep the heartbeat going,...

Select Committee on Health: Health (Regulation of Termination of Pregnancy) Bill 2018: Committee Stage (6 Nov 2018)

Simon Harris: Yes, correct.

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