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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: It appears to be very low.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I have raised this matter previously and will do so again. Community welfare officers, CWOs, were always funded through the Department of Social Protection, but they operated under the HSE. How many of them transferred to the Department of Social Protection and when did they transfer?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: How many CWOs have been assigned to the investigation of fraud?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I wish to be very specific. In my experience as a public representative nobody has the intelligence CWOs have. They deal with people on the ground and administer the rent supplement scheme. They know what is happening. They are the ones with whom we deal on the front line in many cases. I cannot understand why a significant proportion of them were not assigned to inspection and fraud duties.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: No, I will be very direct. My understanding is that there were not as many involved in inspections in 2012 as there were in the previous year. One can have all the systems in the world, but they rely on intelligence about whether people are abusing the rent supplement scheme and so forth. CWOs have this intelligence in abundance because they are the first line of call. If people are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. Moran probably saw reports to the effect that the special liquidator of IBRC did not meet the staff representatives yesterday. It has now been appointed receiver of the Examiner group. If the Department interacts with the liquidator, can it ensure that the meeting takes place with the staff? How will the valuation process in respect of the loans in IBRC apply? Where do the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Can Mr. Moran first conclude the point about the staff?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: The Department will go back to the liquidator and the engagement will take place.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does that mean going out to tender?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Will the valuation that is now being arrived at, and the work on which is due to commence soon, be agreed with NAMA?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Is Ms Nolan at liberty to say what will be the valuation methodology used in this process?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Ms Nolan think that IBRC has made sufficient provisions in the sense that the values currently booked in IBRC's accounts will reflect the independent valuations?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What was the date of that valuation of IBRC's accounts?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Was that December 2012?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: In other words it was based on up to date figures.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Would the auditors have done interim audits, such as rolling audits?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: When will the independent valuation be complete? Will it be six months from today?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Will it go into NAMA in tranches or will it go in as one large transfer?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Ms Nolan have any indication about the future of the staff in IBRC, for example, how many will transfer to NAMA or how does she see that process evolving?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Appropriation Accounts and Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General
Vote 6 - Office of the Minister for Finance
Chapter 1 - Financial Outturn for 2011
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 3 - Banking and Insurance Measures
Chapter 5 - EU Financial Transactions
(7 Mar 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: This is against the backdrop that in a great many cases, mortgages were provided by banks which had become like betting shops. They gave out the betting token, which was the mortgage, and they became salesmen. The rank and file bankers who engaged in prudential lending were pushed aside and the salesmen took over. The problem here is that it is not good enough for banks to now come along...

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