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Public Accounts Committee: National Paediatric Hospital Development Board: Financial Statements 2018 (5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: We will conclude this session because some of the HSE people are waiting outside. I know we ran a bit longer, but it was an issue people wanted to talk about. I thank our guests from NPHDB, the Department of Health, the HSE, and CHI for their attendance. Further information is to come through.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: We are joined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and by Ms Ruth Foley, deputy director of audit, at the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. We are meeting the HSE to discuss the accounts of the public service for 2018 and, in particular, chapter 15 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, which deals...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: Apologies, I left a file outside. I ask Deputy Aylward to take the Chair while I collect some files from my office. I will be back in a moment.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I thank Mr. McCarthy. We have received Mr. Reid's opening statement.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I thank the CEO. The first speaker this afternoon is Deputy Aylward.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I just want to put two questions. I might have to leave in a few minutes so I might ask Deputy Catherine Murphy to take the chair for the last few minutes.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I will only be a moment. Our guests can send the information on, rather than answering the questions here, although they might give me a quick response. The HSE provides approximately 19 million hours of home care per annum.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: We will call it 18 million hours. The budget provided for approximately 1 million additional home care hours next year. How many hours have been approved for home care for people on waiting lists? Do the witnesses understand what I am saying? The committee gets letters-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: The HSE has invented its own language. For example, "moratorium" means one thing to everyone else and something different to the HSE. One can be approved for home care and find oneself on a waiting list. The HSE has invented a new vocabulary. How many people are on waiting lists?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: The opening statement mentioned approximately 7,000 people.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: Does that mean there are 3,500 people approved for home care who will not get it next year but will have to wait until the following year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I ask the witnesses to send the committee a detailed breakdown on the number of these who will be new patients. They can send that in writing because everyone will get it if they send it in writing in due course.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: Are there two lists then?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: Is it from a different budget?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: That is not the full list.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: Are there many such people, over and above the 7,500 on the list?

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I accept that they are recent. I saw a figure somewhere, maybe in correspondence, that it would take an additional 2 million hours, on top of the 18 million hours, to deal with all the applications for home care that the HSE has. I might have done the rough figures, on the basis of 18 million hours divided by the amount of people on the lists, working out what each person is getting on...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I did that sum myself.

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: Would that be the average figure? I worked out that figure probably in the same way as the HSE has done. It might be the accountant in me. I will not go into the politics, but the point is that the recent budget provided 1 million extra home help hours. It appears this will deal with only half of those who are currently approved and are on the waiting list. Perhaps Mr. Reid could send the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2018 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 15 - Development of Primary Care Centres
(5 Dec 2019)

Seán Fleming: I also want to touch on the contract for ambulance services, which I believe Mr. Reid is alerted to. It is specifically on the list. The HSE sent me a letter arising from a parliamentary question I tabled on 12 November. It stated that the HSE had paid out €27 million on private ambulance services that it believes are in the framework. I understand that the framework signed in 2013...

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