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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I am asking Mr. Ó Foghlú about his concerns. We should get this straight. Some €105 million goes on contractors and their costs. That is my understanding of the figures in front of us. I would like the witness to tell me how confident he is about the quality of that tender process. That is my first question. It is €152 million involved in all this spend. Some...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I will return to the issue later.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: If costs were reduced by €8.5 million in one year and there was an Exchequer gain of €6.8 million in the same year, does that mean €15 million was not for one reason or another used in the school transport scheme that year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: We can dispute the reasons for it but there was a saving of €8.5 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: There was also an Exchequer gain of €6.8 million in 2011.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: The explanation is that if it were not for the Department's intervention and oversight of that scheme, the saving of €8.5 million might not have been achieved. In other words, that saving would probably not have been identified had the Department not raised the issue. Were there surplus funds in the scheme over many years or were there inefficiencies therein which caused money to be...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Mr. Foghlú cannot say that definitively because the scheme has not been put out to tender. I am not following the court case, which was mentioned by Deputy Donohoe. I am following the principle of spending €152 million of taxpayers' money and the additional €11.5 million in charges collected by Bus Éireann. The Department refuses to go to tender in respect of this...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Before calling on Deputy Dowds, I wish to clarify a matter raised by Deputy Donohoe, namely, school transport. What is the level of departmental intervention with Bus Éireann as regards the running of the contract? Does the Department reorganise routes with Bus Éireann or does the former issue instructions and rules? What is the company's reporting mechanism to the Department in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: What is the arrangement? Is it a written arrangement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: That is not a contract.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Was it signed by the Department and Bus Éireann?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: If Mr. Ó Foghlú would, please.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: The policy decisions are laid down by the Minister.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: The Minister gets down and dirty as regards this aspect of the agreement. The collection-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: I understand that.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Bus Éireann puts in place a route that it believes is the most efficient.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: It arranges collection points and so on. This is the national transport expertise to which Mr. Ó Foghlú referred.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Yes, within Bus Éireann's remit. It reduced its costs by €8.5 million in 2011. There was an underspend.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: Can we publish the statement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
Chapter 18 - Salary Overpayments to Teachers
Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills
(28 Feb 2013)

John McGuinness: We will be discussing the 2011 appropriation accounts and annual report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, chapter 6, financial commitments under public private partnerships; chapter 18, salary overpayments to teachers, and Vote 26 - Department of Education and Skills. Before we begin I remind members, witnesses and those in the Public Gallery that all mobile phones must be switched off...

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