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Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: Yes, three to five budgets.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I think it is too early for me to give Deputy McGrath a definitive answer on that. At the moment, even though our social insurance system has a deficit within it, people will still get benefits to which they are entitled. That is because we use general taxation at times to complement where we are in the Social Insurance Fund to make sure that people get benefits to which they feel they are...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I do not want to undermine the kind of social contract approach that we are trying to build up here. Many people face circumstances during their lives and we are aware of one of them at the moment in which social insurance contributions lapse and so on. I am determined that we do not end up in a position that the contributory principle is extended to such a degree that it in any way...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I will come back to the Deputy with an answer before we move off this section.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: As I said to Deputy Michael McGrath, my early thinking on this is that it is a very complicated project and that I have yet to get to the point of even determining the terms of reference that would eventually lead to the paper I mentioned earlier. I want to deepen the contributory principle. From my experience of these systems in other jurisdictions, however, I want to evaluate whether such...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: What I am thinking at the moment is that it would be a working group rather than a commission and would consist of the Departments and Government bodies that will be affected by this such as the Revenue Commissioners and the Departments of Employment Affairs and Social Protection and Finance. It would be a working group that would have to instigate a period of public consultation in which...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: That is exactly why I am taking such care in committing to a purely contributory system. It is exactly for the kind of risk the Deputy has identified, of which I am well aware. I believe we have an opportunity to put in place a structure that allows it to be clearer to citizens how we can pay for the maintenance of existing benefits and, hopefully, the creation and expansion of new ones in...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I think statistically they are at the higher end of income earners in our State, yes. Where I differ with the Deputy is that I think the effect of that income on people's living standards varies dramatically.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I will go back to the point I made to the Deputy earlier. I think these two points can coexist beside each other. There can be people who are on an income of €70,000, which is a very high level of income in comparison with somebody who is on €25,000 or €30,000. They are at the higher end of the income ladder in our State as defined by the statistics that I am sure will...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: If this is an argument, it is a reasonably polite one at this point on the Finance Bill. I take the Deputy's point that in terms of the income distribution, someone on €70,000 is clearly at the higher end. I accept that point. I think the Deputy can see my side of the coin also in terms of the pressure that person might face. However, it is because of my recognition also that if I...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I understand that it is the Deputy's intention to propose a tax system under which all of those earning up to €1,731 per week would be exempt from USC entirely. The current exemption threshold for USC stands at €13,000 per annum and it is now estimated that from next year, 29% of all income earners will no longer be liable for USC. To further increase this entry threshold to...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: The Deputy’s amendment refers to the current system of reporting data based on taxpayer units, whereby jointly or separately assessed couples are recorded as a single tax unit. This is an inevitable consequence of a tax system which allows for the assessment of married couples and civil partners based on the joint income of the couple. It is not possible at the moment for Revenue to...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I, too, want the information as it will allow me to form the best view I can of the current state of our tax base because one could reach different conclusions in relation to how many taxpayers are paying tax as opposed to how many tax units are paying tax. Given the value I place on maintaining the breadth of the tax base, I want this information too. Prior to the Deputy raising this issue...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: In regard to employment income only, is the Deputy speaking about income separate to that which could be received from the State?

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I have an idea about where I want to go on this, which I outlined earlier. I am clear on the role which this integration could play. Following the passage of the Finance Bill 2017, I propose to establish a working group, with terms of reference, which will lead to a paper, which when completed I will publish and make available to the Deputy. The main reason for my not being able to accept...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: My difficulty is with the period of six months. I am happy to give a commitment that well in advance of any significant change that is made as part of the merger, I will publish a report on the options that are open to us. I will not publish that report on the day such changes commence. This is a big piece of work. As I have said, it will take between three and five budgets to complete...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: We aim to do that early next year.

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: It is too early in the work I want to do in this regard to be able to answer that question. As Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, I am intimately aware of how the health of the social insurance fund - whether it is in surplus or deficit - makes a big difference to the figures at budget time. I have too much work to do. That is why I want this work to be done before I...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: I am well aware of that. I have a very clear view on where I want this to go. I want to find a way in which, at a minimum, either some or all of the USC, as it is currently structured, can make a contribution to the firm maintenance of the benefits we have at the moment. I do not have a view on where we are in that continuum. I want to look at ensuring the new benefits for which there is...

Select Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Finance Bill 2017: Committee Stage (7 Nov 2017)

Paschal Donohoe: This section amends section 466A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, which provides for the home carer tax credit. The amendment was announced in my budget speech and will increase the value of the credit from its current level of €1,100 to €1,200. The increase will assist married couples or civil partners where one spouse or partner works primarily in the home to care for...

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