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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Has CIE indicated what it believes the Department should be paying for the scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: If we can find out what CIE counts we can compare the figures.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Has the Department's internal audit team done any work on the issue?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Can we get information on that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Is there fraud in that scheme?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: According to the figures an average of ten to 20 passes are confiscated per day by Irish Rail and Bus Éireann confiscates approximately 50 passes per month. Dublin Bus issued 488 penalties for misuse. I am trying to factor this into the figure we are paying to the companies for the service. What is the level of fraud and what figure does the Department put on it? Ms O'Donoghue cannot...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Can we find out the cost to the company? What cost do they put on fraud in these schemes?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: What does the Department's risk manager say about this?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: This brings me to another point. I am shocked by the lack of information being provided. In regard to the questions on the management of schemes, which were reasonable, I ask that we get the information requested, including information from CIE, at the earliest opportunity. This needs to be resolved and some sort of audit will have to be conducted into the expenditure of €76 million...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Deputy Fleming asked for a significant amount of information on the debts and other aspects of the Department's spend. I suggest that most of the information requested should be at the ready. I would like to see it within the next week to ten days. In regard to the services procured by the Department, at what level does it go out to tender?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: If the tender is awarded for an ongoing rolling service transacted by the Department each year, how often is it revisited?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Is Ms O'Donoghue satisfied that all those tenders have been reviewed at the end of the appropriate period, be it one year or three years?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: To take, for example, the distribution of leaflets, is a contract in place if somebody asks for a particular leaflet on benefits and it is sent out from a call centre?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: The Department paid €61 million to CIE in 2011.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: On what was it based?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Was it based on a guesstimate or an estimate of passenger numbers?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: That estimate or that survey was last conducted in 1973.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: I am not going away from the issue yet. I want to stay with CIE for a moment. Based on what happened in 1973, with some work in between times but not much, the Department pays CIE €61 million.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Is the Secretary General satisfied with that? Is that getting value for money?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 – Social Protection
Chapter 21 – Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 22 – Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 23 – Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Social Insurance Fund – Annual Accounts 2011
(14 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: But the Secretary General does not know how many people go on that.

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