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Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: My question is whether the 35 properties are all in use.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: What is the cost of those properties per year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: If the properties are leased, they must have break clauses and ways and means of ending the lease should that be required.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Yes. I agree generally with what Deputy Nolan said about the system. It may be the best the Department can do with the allocation it has and, bearing in mind the draw factor to which Mr. Purcell referred, it is absolutely appalling that some people are left locked in that system for years. It has definitely affected their families, their mental health and how they view things. To condemn...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: I am talking about the years people spend in the Department's system.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: That said, they spend a lot of time in the system. This is true of the cases I am aware of and applies in some cases to those without judicial review. It is a policy matter but greater efforts should be made to provide an earlier reply. I do not buy the idea that many cases are complex and that complexity is at issue.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: A bit of humanity and compassion would not go astray when the Department is preparing the Bill. My next questions concern tribunals and property. The Department contributed €2.8 million to the project of the State Pathologist's office. The building has been demolished.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: We know what gave rise to the legal complexities. What caused a building project not to continue and to be demolished?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: The asylum and immigration system costs us €140 million per year. Does that include the payments to appeals commissioners, or is that the correct title?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: How many appeals commissioners are there? Do you have a list of the payments made to them?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Can you give us information on the highest earner?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: What was the average payment? Can we have a copy of that list?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Does Ms Creedon wish to comment?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: It is clear from the exchange that even if we go into private session, no further information will be gathered and no questions will be answered because it is the same position. If members agree that to be the case, we will close this exchange and return to discussing the general Vote. Is that agreed? Agreed. Deputy Eoghan Murphy was in possession and had asked questions on the general...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: It is a matter for the witnesses. The Deputy asked a question. Maybe they will answer.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Deputy Nolan has asked if the questions could be answered were the witnesses to request to go into private session pursuant to Standing Order 163.

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Our advice is that this matter is rightfully before the committee, which is working on the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Therefore, members have an obligation to go through that report and to ask the questions they see as appropriate. As I see it, from his opening remarks and exchanges up to now, Deputy Nolan can proceed and ask questions but he must bear in mind the constraints...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: The content of those questions may cut across the court case but the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is a public document and can be examined in terms of the general content. If Deputy Nolan pursued his questions along those lines, I would ask both the Accounting Officer and the Chief State Solicitor to co-operate with the questions that are being asked as long as we observe those...

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Would Mr. Purcell like to comment on this?

Public Accounts Committee: 2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 13 - Office of the Chief State Solicitor
Vote 19 - Justice and Equality
Chapter 15: Lease of Accommodation for a Probation Service Project
(21 Mar 2013)

John McGuinness: Is this a question that Mr. Purcell would not answer?

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