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Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have a few questions having listened to what has been said today. In your opening statement you said that: "I am pleased to inform the committee that on 17 January the Government approved the heads of the Bill". Had that been announced before this morning?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: It was good that was on the books before you got here today.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: We are pleased with that, in any event. Having listened to you, I am not clear on the thinking behind this. I will take two examples of what you just said and we will deal with them one by one. You said that with more GALs in the system the service could be increased and there would be no closed shop, and there will not be a cartel. You said something like that just a moment ago....

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will come to the economies of scale in a moment. You gave a flavour of what will be in the legislation. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers to section 1 of the Children's Act, advisory board guidelines, giving advice to children's wishes, feelings and interests, of May 2009. That group was abolished in 2011. It talks about the qualifications and training for GALs. It...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: It sounds like a three-stage process. The first stage is the procurement, the second stage is the new legislation and the third stage is the further legislation required in relation to the structure and where it is going to be placed, be that in the Courts Service or somewhere else. That has not even been decided yet by the Government in the heads of the Bill. You are going ahead with the...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will make two observations as a practising Deputy, not so much as a Chairman. I ask the Department to do a favour, not for me, but for the children. Dr. Lynch mentioned the possibility that this service could end up within the courts system. That is no place for a structure for vulnerable children to be. It is not acceptable that before they even start the process, they are part of the...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: -----but it is an example of the thinking that is going on. I welcome Dr. Lynch's opening statement. The only part of it I did not like was that part in which he talked about the need for significant reform, which he mentioned at the beginning of his statement. He said that one of the issues is that the service is essentially demand led and determined by decision of the courts, as if that...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: The judge.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Does he or she pick the guardian ad litem?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: The judges have their own local list.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I know there appears to be a difficulty getting the names and I know good work has been done by other people. Does the Courts Service have a role in obtaining this? Can Dr. Lynch answer that? Is it the case that the judges, because they are operating due to the judicial independence, do not have to pass this information on? This should be well known.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes. Dr. Lynch has done his best to identify 65, but are there more out there? Is he satisfied that the list is complete?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: The list of 65 is complete.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will ask Dr. Lynch another question, and this is just for public information. The opening paragraph of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report refers to the fact that the views of the child are held in public family law proceedings. Are guardians ad litemappointed in private family law cases in the family law courts?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: This is important. Will Dr. Lynch explain this to the public? I will speak as a layperson. When we hear about vulnerable children, custody battles and so on, we assume that family law courts are generally in cameraand that much of the proceedings in question are held in camera. Dr. Lynch now seems to be saying this guardian ad litemservice is only for the public courts service. Surely,...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Who pays for the child views expert?

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Dr. Lynch will understand that I am an elected politician and not an expert on this, but I am getting a little frustrated now. I am hearing that we are only talking about a segment of cases involving vulnerable children that are heard in public. There could be many a case involving a child in an in cameracourt, a family law court or the juvenile court. Is there a guardian ad litemappointed...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will ask Dr. Lynch to come back to the committee on this. Will he come back to us with a report explaining to us who looks after vulnerable children in the Irish Courts Service? That is the job of his Department and Tusla.

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: We have had a long discussion, and I think 90% of the people had assumed we would cover vulnerable children in the courts. We are only now hearing the guardian ad litemservice does not cover juvenile courts or family law courts, that these experts will be established, that families who possibly cannot afford to pay for their legal costs in the family law courts are being told to pay for...

Public Accounts Committee: Report of the Accounts of the Public Services 2015
Chapter 11 - Guardian Ad Litem Service
(19 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Whatever legislation the Department is bringing forward, if it does not deal with all vulnerable children before the courts, it is only part of the issue. I ask the Department to look at the bigger picture. Maybe I am getting everything wrong here, but from what I am hearing, we are only touching one aspect of this.

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