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Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Many people would see it as a bit more than a lot of explaining having to be done. There is disbelief internationally from many economists. Much of the international reporting of the growth figures is that they were more than just distorted, that they do not form the basis upon which decisions can be made. We know that the GDP figures have an impact on the application of the fiscal rules...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Mr. O’Kelly also has to explain - he said that he had received calls from investors – the GDP figures. He used the word “distortion”. What does he mean by that term in the sense of a distortion of the GDP or GNP figures? What is his understanding of the distortion?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Does the NTMA have a role in reporting to the Department or the CSO? It is on the front line on the borrowing side in terms of requests from asset and fund managers and has had to explain what has happened, as it has done. It has a view on what the issues are. I assume it has some responsibility to report back to the Government. Will Mr. O'Kelly talk us through what this involves? Is...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Does the NTMA engage with the CSO?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Does the CSO engage with the NTMA?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Would it be useful for the CSO to engage with the NTMA, given that it calculates the figures?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: On the Strategic Innovation Fund and its relationship with the European Investment Bank, what is Mr O'Kelly's definition of investment? What criteria are used in determining whether a project should be funded?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: The European Commission has published a report on the EU Urban Agenda Toolbox which looks at the workings of the European Investment Bank which does a similar job to the Strategic Innovation Fund. It discusses the building of a sustainable community. In a reference to the office in Poland it states the first time EIB bankers came to discuss the extension of the small metro system in Warsaw,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Mr. O'Kelly has said a commercial return forms a heavy part of the blend of the mandate given to the NTMA by the Oireachtas. Mandates can be changed if they are too restrictive. I am assuming that as this is a new fund, it is being established and that the NTMA will have to evaluate its effectiveness. In doing this has it formed an opinion on the need to change the mandate to make it more...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: I wish to focus on the former remit of the National Development Finance Agency and public private partnerships. The important aspect of public private partnerships is that we get value for money. It is important that information be given to Oireachtas Members and citizens in order that we are confident we are getting value for money. How does this work?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Will Mr.O'Kelly give us a quick glimpse of the areas covered by PPP projects? What type of building has been constructed using a PPP?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: I will get to the Comptroller and Auditor General shortly but in terms of the areas where public private partnerships, PPPs, have been prevalent, so far it has been schools, courts-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: -----and nursing homes, which are a new feature. Now, public private partnerships are in health care as well. Essentially, these are tried and tested areas-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: -----and we are told that one of the advantages of PPPs is that there is risk-sharing.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: The State takes a share of the risk and the private sector shares the risk, but there is not any real risk in many of these projects. That is something on which there should be more of a focus because if there is no risk, these are lucrative projects for the companies involved. I read the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on PPPs and some issues arise from that which I will come to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Is Mr. O'Kelly familiar with the model in British Columbia and other regions in Canada in that the authorities publish reports as soon a contract is signed in respect of a PPP project? It sets out risk analysis and the complete 25 or 30-year picture. It gives information on the entire project. It evaluates whether value for money will be achieved. Everything has to be captured and...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: The Department of Public Expenditure and Reform website is three years out of date. One of our functions is to ensure that we get value for money and that we understand PPPs in terms of their volume and number. If the website is three years out of date and does not provide the full PPP listings, surely that is a failure on the Department's side. It also has an impact on the work of the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: Is that something that can be examined?

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: It is one of the NTMA's area of competence now and I am hoping it is something Mr. O'Kelly will be able to help us with.

Public Accounts Committee: 2014 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 2 - Government Debt
Chapter 24 - Accounts of the National Treasury Management Agency
National Treasury Management Agency Financial Statements 2015
(21 Jul 2016)

David Cullinane: I might ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to comment on it because he has furnished the committee with a report also.

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