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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: There are 26 airborne vehicles. The Secretary General might forward that note. While he has read it into the record, it was hard for us to catch all that. Given the fact that the original jet is no longer in commission, what has happened to the people who were involved in piloting and maintaining it? How are those pilots keeping their hours up? In other words, following on from what the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. I just want ask one last question on the jet. I have other questions for the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. In the last paragraph of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, paragraph 8.42, he states "In the absence of a competitive sales process, it is difficult to conclude on whether best value was obtained." That is effectively the Comptroller and Auditor...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: At the time, did the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform have to approve the action?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: So the decision did not cross Ms Austin's desk in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform at any stage?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Should it have?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Deputy Alan Farrell will appreciate this. There is a global figure. The jet debt was ultimately disposed of. The Gulfstream jet was booked in at €45 million and we got approximately 22 years out of it. The capital cost of the aircraft, excluding maintenance and running, was approximately €2 million per annum. Is that reasonable? It was €45 million over approximately...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have been listening to the questions about the Learjet. It is booked in for approximately €10 million in 2003 and has a lifespan of 20 years, of which six years are left.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Therefore, the capital cost of the Learjet is €500,000 per annum, compared to €2 million for the Gulfstream. I am just making the point. The Gulfstream was capable of carrying more passengers, but the capital cost was four times higher. Are my figures in the right ballpark? I am excluding operation and maintenance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: It cannot go the same distance. The Border duty allowance is €2.8 million and is being paid to approximately 710 recipients, which is an average of €4,000 per annum. It is specific to the individuals and no new people will get it. Is the allowance pensionable?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: For the majority of the 700 who receive the allowance, it will not be pensionable. We will ask for a detailed note on it. Some of them have it while they are in service and, good luck to their health, if they live 40 years after they retire, given that some of them retire young, a portion of it will be pensionable for the next 40 years.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is fine. Could Mr. Quinn explain for the public the "net allied service expenditure" mentioned in the document. To me, it is the expenditure incurred and paid for by other Departments for the use of the Defence Forces. I am looking at the one that states the Department of the Taoiseach paid costs associated with the Defence Forces in 2015 of €72,000, an increase from...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: The House of the Oireachtas and Government Buildings.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: In other words, the soldiers we see walking around the place at night in Government Buildings and the Oireachtas complex are being paid for out of the Vote of the Department of the Taoiseach.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: What is this net allied service expenditure? The Comptroller and Auditor General might have to explain it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: What about the services the Defence Forces provide to the Garda Síochána? Where is that figure? Perhaps the Comptroller and Auditor General can explain. It might be somewhat boring and we will get back to something less boring in a moment. Which Department pays for it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will move on. I will ask for an explanatory note in layman's English in the report.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will get a note on it. The final issue I wish to raise relates to legal costs. Before that, I will make two or three quick points. We have got good receipts from the United Nations, UN, in the year in question. What percent of the costs of our missions overseas is billed to the UN? In some of them, the country has to carry the costs, while in others they can make a claim against the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: Bosnia and Herzegovina is an EU mission, not a UN one. What percentage of the costs we incur can be billed to the UN?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: The Defence Forces incur costs and get some money back. What percentage of our costs do we get back? That is the simple question. Mr. Quinn can come back to us with a note on it. That part of it tells us what came in during the year but it does not tell us the percentage on an ongoing basis. Mr. Quinn understands my question. There were big payments in the year for the new vessel that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 35 – Army Pensions
Vote 36 - Department of Defence
Chapter 8 – Disposal of the Government Jet
(26 Jan 2017)

Seán Fleming: In what month was delivery taken of it?

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