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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
(20 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: This is taxpayer's money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
(20 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: This has had a major impact on people in their daily lives.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
(20 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: While I know the National Asset Management Agency has a job to do in obtaining value for taxpayers, a moral issue also arises. NAMA must be vigilant about its procedures.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 7 - Office of the Minister for Finance
NAMA - Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
(20 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I thank the Chairman and welcome the representatives of NAMA and the Department of Finance to this meeting. To put this in context, NAMA as a financial entity has had an enormous impact on Ireland Inc. Our role as a committee is to examine the use of taxpayers' money. I note in his statement that Mr. Mc Donagh said that he and his colleagues built the organisation, but it was built with...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What date was that?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I have a final question for Dr. Smith. From my reading of the internal audit report 12 organisations are paying externally funded salaries and allowances above the Government pay guidelines. The total number of allowance being paid is 47. However, some managers could be receiving double payments.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What is the total number of managers involved in the 12 organisations concerned.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Okay. In regard to the 47 allowances, how many individuals are involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: There are 34 people involved.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I know that. How many of the 34 people involved receive more than one payment?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What is the total number of people employed in all of the section 38 agencies?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: So 34 of the 35,000 people are in receipt of allowances. This matter needs to be resolved. While as I have stated previously people are entitled to be paid for the work they do, if that pay breaches Government pay guidelines the issue must be addressed. With due respect to the HSE, we should not be discussing this matter today. It should have been sorted a long time ago.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What will the HSE do about it? We have letters going back over a month and a half. It is like ping pong, we are getting into the middle of it and I want the game to stop. A section 38 organisation is publicly coming out and issuing a rebuke to the HSE, saying "get lost". The HSE is funding the CRC with taxpayers' money.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: What is the HSE going to do about it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: He should not be dictating-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: I had a quick look at Ms Smith's internal audit report. Page 8 refers to 12 section 38 organisations, to the tune of €902,472, paying externally funded salaries and allowances. Those agencies include St. Vincent's University Hospital, COPE Foundation, CRC, St. Michael's House, the Coombe Women and Infants University Hospital, the Mater hospital, the National Maternity Hospital, Our...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Ms Smith believe St. Vincent's is not in compliance with the two circulars?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: It is not.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: On the compliance statements, the section 38 organisations are being asked to make comments by today.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 38 - Health
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(19 Dec 2013)

Kieran O'Donnell: How many of the section 38 organisations have come back? They are not required to give written confirmation until the end of January. I would have thought the HSE would seek written confirmation before the start of the new year. Why did it not? This has been going on for a significant period of time. Why is confirmation stretching out into 2014?

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