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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: But it has not been enough of an incentive for Meta to talk to the banking federation or the banks or anything like that. Has Meta had any discussions with any of the others that are involved in this or any of the other stakeholders?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: I do not mean Mr. Ó Broin's personal relationship, but he must know what the relationship is between his own company and the banks. Do they meet? Do they ever discuss anything? Is APP fraud important enough for Meta to discuss it with any of the financial institutions, the regulator in this State, the Government, a Department or anybody else?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Does Mr. Ó Broin see what I mean, though? There is a discrepancy there because if Meta were focused on it and focused on finding solutions to it, it would be engaged regularly with all these stakeholders to try to find a collective solution, rather than people working in silos and ordinary people being the victims of crime, which, at the end of the day, is what they are here.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Okay, but Meta has not until now. What is the difference between how APP fraud is handled here and how it is handled in the UK, from a social media perspective, or from the perspective of the witnesses' platforms?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Before Mr. Milton comes in, are the social media companies compelled to participate in that forum? Is it driven by the Government and is there then a compellability on all the agencies involved? Mr. Milton might clarify that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: I am sorry to interrupt, but who is the regulator in that case when Mr. Milton says "regulators"? Who regulates the social media companies in Britain and in other jurisdictions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: There are regulators to which the companies are responsible, but there is no regulator in Ireland to do that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Why, then, are the companies represented here not engaging with any regulator here, even if ComReg does not have responsibility for it? Are they engaging with anybody? Are the witnesses surprised that there is no regulator here?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Okay, so there is just no regulation here but there is a regulator in Britain, so that is treated differently.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: No. The Central Bank said that responsibility for regulation of online platforms resides with ComReg, but then, when we as a committee questioned ComReg on that, ComReg said that its remit does not extend to recording, investigating or combating fraud.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Yes, but there is no engagement here either with the Central Bank, the Government or any of the financial institutions on APP fraud. So it is all happening globally but it does not happen here. Is that correct?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: There a formal platform for agencies to get together to discuss things.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: The main message from tonight is that that needs to be done. I appreciate there is a willingness to do that but it must be driven by Government. Passing the buck from the Central Bank to ComReg does not help us solve the problem before us and the problems that will exist in the future, particularly as AI advances and exposes more people to fraud.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Has there ever been any sanctions?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: No, not on that one but on anything else. With different engagement, regulators and so on, have social media companies ever been sanctioned?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: I understand and will leave my questions at that.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: If I report to Meta today that money has been extracted illegally from me and a crime has been committed, what does Meta do?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: What is Meta's relationship with the banks then?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Authorised Push Payment Fraud: Discussion (Resumed) (24 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: Has there been any sanctions for payment regarding fraudulent advertisements to extract money from people, if advertisements are not taken down in time or if proper procedures are not followed in terms of applying that?

Written Answers — Department of Public Expenditure and Reform: Departmental Reviews (19 Oct 2023)

Rose Conway-Walsh: 178. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform when the ESRI review of the NDP was commissioned, completed, or will be complete and when it will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45863/23]

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