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Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Can you explain that to the layman?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: At the valuation date, which is when the person entered into-----

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: There is a gap.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have one very quick question. When the rate is set by the NTPF for a nursing home and the subvention is agreed, can there be top-up fees? I am not talking about the little ancillary extras, but can the HSE approve someone for €1,000 per week with the family paying €200 on top of that?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: There will be extra ancillary bits. We understand the smaller bits. I am talking about the basic weekly or monthly fee.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: In other words, the private nursing home cannot charge an additional fee for the basic items covered.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: They do for hairdressing and entertainment.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: You do not charge for looking after people.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Who checks that?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will have to write to the NTPF to give us some information. It would have been helpful had we invited them in today.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will write to them first. We have a big list of people to see. We will take the written response and then decide what to do, so we will follow this up.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am sorry to interrupt but a vote has been called in the Dáil. We must suspend the meeting because there are no pairing arrangements in place. I am not sure how long the voting will take-----

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes. We will suspend for one hour, from 2.15 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. That will give Deputies time to vote and allow the witnesses to get a cup of tea or some lunch.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We are back in public session and are resuming our discussion with the HSE. The next speaker is Deputy Aylward.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is there a three-year cap for the farmer?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Listen to this, Deputy Aylward.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is Ms Noonan saying that if somebody from a farming background survives ten years in a nursing home, under the fair deal scheme, 70% of their farm is gone on debt? I understand that. People talked about the three-year cap but it is only very specific. That is the point Deputy Aylward is getting very concerned about. Is there double counting in the farming community if their income is...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We want to clarify this situation. Is Ms Noonan saying that in a farm situation in which there is an elderly farmer whose son is working the farm, earning the income and supporting his generation, who will inherit the farm, if the father has not signed it over at this point-----

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: They look at recent transfers. When the father passes away in the nursing home after ten years, his farm is gone and has been taken out from under the son who has been farming it.

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