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Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: If someone is not selling a property and it stays within the family, it might never come to light even though there is €7,000 due in that case.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is Mr. McCarthy happy with it being dealt with in that way? Based on the €30 million last year, we are satisfied that there is money to be collected and is being collected. It is being handed in without anybody asking for it. Should someone in the Department not try to talk to the Revenue Commissioners and compare it with LPT and try to do some matching to see if it is possible to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Some 400,000-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: ----- are paying it.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will tease that out for a minute. Mr. McCarthy is saying in 2013 we knew that 400,000 houses were liable to pay this.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: How many of those 413,000 paid it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: The real question is how do we know that €400,000 was a complete figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: A complete figure. We do not know and I know that Mr. McCarthy does not know either.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay, here is another question. Out of the 4,000 or 5,000 people who paid last year and who, on their own, yielded €35 million, how many were on the list as being due and how many were new and not known about by the Department?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Would the Department have that information?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will stop on this topic at this point but I want a detailed report on that. I think Mr. McCarthy understands what I am looking for here. There was money coming through and we both know that some of it was never in the Department's system. Some of what was coming through possibly was in the Department's system but the Department should know how many of the 5,000 people who paid last year...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: If you do want to come back at a later date, that is fine. I ask that the Department sends us the information it has and we will have a look at it. My next question is on the tenant purchase scheme. Can local authorities unilaterally, through a valuer, set the value, about which there can be no further discussion or can the tenant get an approved valuer, recognised by the local authority,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am asking about the rules and regulations, not about what Mr. McCarthy assumes a kind housing finance officer would do.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: The housing authority has the right to set the price unilaterally and it can choose not to negotiate with a reputable valuer. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Mr. McCarthy mentioned market value. Can any approved auctioneer give an estimate of the market value or is it solely-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Who sets the market value? When the Department issued the circular on the scheme, did it include a provision allowing an independent valuer to submit a valuation to the local authority on behalf of the purchaser? Is that in the scheme or not?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is not provided for-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It took me a long time to get that answer from Mr. McCarthy.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Would Mr. McCarthy be aware of any other situation involving the sale of a house where one side has the absolute sole right to set the price and the other side has no right to negotiate on that price? Does he think that is reasonable? Would the Ombudsman stand over that sort of procedure? Does Mr. McCarthy think that is fair?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will tell my constituent to take the matter up with the Ombudsman if there is no appeals system in place to deal with it. I believe that this is not good public administration. We will test it; that is all I will say. I thank Mr. McCarthy for clarifying that it is decided by the local authority and not by another valuer. Mr. McCarthy said that the housing assistance payment, HAP,...

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