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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: On the outstanding issues vote accounting and budget management, and then we have the procurement and management of contracts. That is one of the outstanding issues and then NTMA. We have only a couple of outstanding issues to deal with.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It is item No. 6, procurement and management of contracts. It is there specifically. We do have a date. I guarantee it is on our work programme and it will definitely be dealt with, but we do not have a date yet.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We are now dealing with Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government. We are also dealing with the Comptroller and Auditor General report 2105, chapter 4 regarding central funding to local authorities and chapter 5, progress on land aggregation. From the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government we are joined by Mr. John McCarthy, Secretary General; Ms Maria...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I thank Mr. McCarthy for his contribution. On the figures for Irish Water in 2015, the Comptroller and Auditor General made a separate reference to funding for Irish Water which Mr. McCarthy did not mention. Are the figures for 2015 correct? Mr. McCarthy has said €222 million was provided for capital expenditure, €399 million for operations and by way of a subvention, while...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes. The Comptroller and Auditor General has a paragraph in his report stating that in 2015 an amount of €427 million was transferred directly from the Exchequer in the form of a once-off grant payment to local authorities. It was to allow them to repay borrowings from the Housing Finance Agency that had been used to fund local authority water supply and treatment infrastructure that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes. We need to clarify the word "reclassification" in order that the public understands what Mr. McCarthy means. The assets transferred, but the liabilities remained with the taxpayer.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Am I correct when I say that talking about reclassifying liabilities is a nice way of saying the taxpayer paid for those liabilities while the assets went to Irish Water minus the liabilities?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is correct. From the point of view of taxpayers, these moneys primarily went through the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government but also went through central funds that did not go through the Department's Vote. Thankfully, the Comptroller and Auditor General highlighted this issue separately in his remarks this morning. The transfer in respect of Irish Water...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is correct. Okay. The opening speakers - Deputies Cassells and MacSharry - have 20 and 15 minutes, respectively. Deputies Catherine Murphy, Cullinane, Connolly and Madigan have also indicated and they will be taken in that order.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: The HAP is the biggest of the lot.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is that substantially a transfer of people from rent supplement to housing assistance?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I would like Mr. McCarthy to clarify one point on HAP. I would like a detailed note on this. HAP is substantially a transfer of people from rent supplement. The 13,000 are not new people and they are not in new houses. When the rent supplement payments were being moved from the Department of Social Protection to the local authorities, county by county, landlords increased the rent for a...

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I will ask Mr. McCarthy to give me the details because he said some were new people. Some might have been people who were on rent supplement changing address. The person was in a house on rent supplement, the rent went up, the person left and got a new house and that same person now comes in under HAP. Mr. McCarthy is calling that a new application but it is the same person. Does Mr....

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: What do you call "new"?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: The witness appears to have a detailed schedule so will he please send it to the committee?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: If we have further questions after we receive that, we will come back to the witness.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay. Deputy Connolly is next.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: What year are we talking about?

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: That is fine.

Public Accounts Committee: 2015 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 34 - Environment, Community and Local Government
(2 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I have one question on the HAP scheme. Following on from what Deputy Connolly said, the essence of what Mr. McCarthy said was that if there is a difference between what is allowed and the extra discretion and if somebody has to pay extra money to get that house, it is a matter between the tenant and the landlord. Is that legal? Does the scheme allow for it?

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