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Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will write to them first. We have a big list of people to see. We will take the written response and then decide what to do, so we will follow this up.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I am sorry to interrupt but a vote has been called in the Dáil. We must suspend the meeting because there are no pairing arrangements in place. I am not sure how long the voting will take-----

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Yes. We will suspend for one hour, from 2.15 p.m. until 3.15 p.m. That will give Deputies time to vote and allow the witnesses to get a cup of tea or some lunch.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We are back in public session and are resuming our discussion with the HSE. The next speaker is Deputy Aylward.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is there a three-year cap for the farmer?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Listen to this, Deputy Aylward.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Is Ms Noonan saying that if somebody from a farming background survives ten years in a nursing home, under the fair deal scheme, 70% of their farm is gone on debt? I understand that. People talked about the three-year cap but it is only very specific. That is the point Deputy Aylward is getting very concerned about. Is there double counting in the farming community if their income is...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We want to clarify this situation. Is Ms Noonan saying that in a farm situation in which there is an elderly farmer whose son is working the farm, earning the income and supporting his generation, who will inherit the farm, if the father has not signed it over at this point-----

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: They look at recent transfers. When the father passes away in the nursing home after ten years, his farm is gone and has been taken out from under the son who has been farming it.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: The Department has been doing a review. Ms Noonan talked about what is ultimately handed over. The value of the house is handed over for Revenue to ultimately collect. Can Ms Noonan give us a breakdown of what is handed over to Revenue to collect in respect of family homes and separately in respect of other assets such as farm assets? How much has been handed over to Revenue to collect...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Members may want to ask more questions. The breakdown of people being provided for under the scheme has 80% in private institutions and 20% in HSE institutions. In the past couple of years, a couple of hundred beds have come out of the system and there is no great plan to increase numbers dramatically; there may even be a few more restrictions, depending on the refurbishments that must take...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: I get the point. The witnesses have referred to people living in their own property and payments ultimately being made to the Chief State Solicitor if nobody can be found. How much has been transferred to the Chief State Solicitor's account from the patient property fund? The witnesses have twice mentioned where this goes if we cannot track anyone, saying that as a last resort, it is...

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It does not go through the HSE and it would not necessarily know about it.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: The witnesses might send us a note on that. They might have to consult with the Chief State Solicitor.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: There would be more than the HSE in that.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: What is the name of the account?

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: If it is laid before the Oireachtas we will ask for it to be circulated to members during the week so we can have a look at it.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: It does not cover it.

Public Accounts Committee: HSE's Patients' Private Property Accounts 2015
HSE Financial Statement 2015: Note 13 re Fair Deal Scheme
Health Repayments Scheme Donations Fund 2015
(9 Mar 2017)

Seán Fleming: We will get a copy of the information. Another point has been mentioned in passing regarding people in long-term care. There are many people in long-term care in the disabilities sector or psychiatric services. They may not come under the scheme we are discussing. Will the witnesses comment on the people in the care of the HSE not covered by the nursing home support scheme? There must be...

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