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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: I want to touch on a couple of other points. As chairman of the board, will Professor Whelan indicate why there was so much secrecy? Clearly, the group is now in discussions with the HSE. Why all the secrecy? Why was a dawn raid made on Christmas Eve in the context of the announcement?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: No, I am just asking why-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: We have seen the letters and we are aware that the group was dragged - kicking and screaming - into the process. Why did it fight so hard on the matter?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: If it is bringing Arthur Cox and Michael McDowell, SC, on board, to the ordinary man in the street it would appear that a fair amount of firepower is being brought to bear by a group that is seeking to be in compliance. Why did the group fight so hard?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Two final questions. The group received a pension contribution to the tune of €12 million from the HSE in June 2013. The reason for this was because the fund was under-capitalised. Was that money put towards pensions in the public hospital, the private hospital or both?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: For the sake of consistency, St. Vincent's Foundation is the fund-raising arm of the hospital. What level of funding does it raise annually?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Would any of that money ever be used to pay salaries? For what would it be used?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: So there are no salaries involved.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: My final questions are for Mr. O'Brien and Dr. Smith. Will Dr. Smith indicate why, in the context of her report on section 38 organisations, the initial number of officials indicated was three? Will she further indicate why this suddenly rose to seven?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Will Mr. Jermyn explain from where the four additional officials came?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: To clarify, Mr. Jermyn has referred to the circular.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: So, clearly he regards the circular as the definitive document in terms of compliance. However, Mr. Michael McDowell, SC, has effectively said that the circular does not stand up to scrutiny.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. Jermyn is saying that their salaries were paid by the private hospital.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: What about their top-ups? Did they come from-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Does Mr. Jermyn accept Mr. O'Brien's point to the effect that those three people who were paid top-ups in respect of the private hospital but who are salaried employees of the public hospital are not in compliance? Will Mr. O'Brien indicate if I am correct in my interpretation in this regard?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Yes. So does Mr. Jermyn accept what Mr. O'Brien is saying, namely, that three employees of the public hospital were paid top-ups on the basis of work they did in the private hospital and that they are not in compliance as long as they continue to be paid such top-ups by the private hospital?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Of what entity are they employees?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Are all staff employed by St. Vincent's Healthcare Group?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Public.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
Annual Report and Financial Statements 2012
Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration
(16 Jan 2014)

Kieran O'Donnell: Yes, but by what entity are the three people under discussion employed?

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