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Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: As we look at the figures for taxis and hospitality and so on, is each and every one of those figures down to the president or is it the president's cost centre?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Can Dr. Neavyn give an estimate of the legal costs in relation to the claim for in excess of €100,000?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Have the solicitors representing him not indicated a figure?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: I will now direct questions to Mr. Boland. Looking back on the matter and the various reports on it, and that what was going on was not uncovered by the HEA, does the authority have questions to answer on governance issues?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Should the HEA not have looked into the activities of the institute? Given its very public profile and the creation of these companies, is Mr. Boland saying that in general terms of governance and accountability, none of this came to the attention of the HEA?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: To what is Mr. Boland saying "yes"?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: If that had not happened, the institute would have gone merrily along the way it had been going. The HEA would not have known about it.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Does Mr. Ó Foghlú think it is credible that all of this went on under the public gaze, that the structures were known to all and sundry and yet the HEA, overseeing the institute, did not know and, as a result, we are dealing with this loss of money to the State? I find that incredible.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: I read in some of these papers that the president's term was at an end and that he had to be reappointed. His reappointment was recommended following an interview process. Is that right?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: That finance person could have decided not to sign off on it.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: I question that, because there are other instances here. I found one instance where there was a query as to why tickets were bought at Ticketmaster, if my recollection is correct. My understanding is that the president was asked to repay that and he did so. That is proof positive that there was a system in which if enough fuss was made about a matter it would be repaid, or it would be...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: I understand that. I wish to emphasise, because we will have to consider this after we finish our hearing, that the chairman said this. We are acknowledging that there was a breakdown in systems, but there was also a breakdown in terms of the people who served on the governing body and on the internal audit committee. That must be acknowledged too. There is a further acknowledgement that...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Would half the members have changed?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Are the same people on the audit committee?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Perhaps you would provide us with that.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: The other question that arose from some of the reports is the travel costs of governing body members. Explain how they would incur costs for travel.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: No, it was in the period we are discussing. It is a separate question. Did the governing body incur travel expenses during the period in question? If it did, how did it incur them and what was it doing?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: They were being paid to be there and to govern and all of this took place.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Yes. They were paid for going down to govern.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 78 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Matters Arising out of Education Audits (Resumed) (10 Oct 2013)

John McGuinness: Perhaps you would give us a list of who did-----

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