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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: Ms O'Donoghue, therefore, liaises with the Attorney General's office regarding its communications with the High Court. Can she understand the difficulty for the workers? I know people who have died since this process began, going back to when the court case was taken to the Europe. It is estimated 30 former workers have died since this was initiated and that is an issue for us. It has...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: Ms O'Donoghue has explained the nexus regarding the Government generally. The Department is in communication with the Attorney General's office and it might be in contact with the office of the President of the High Court. Some indication needs to be given by Ministers or the Department, although it does not speak for Ministers, with regard to the urgency required. It has been dragged out...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: "No" is the answer. The Department is dealing with this perspectively or from this point on.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: By how much? That is important.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: Does Ms O'Donoghue attribute this specifically to the provisions included in the Act?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: The point of including it in the legislation was to improve it and Ms O'Donoghue is saying definitively that it has worked.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: In the Act is there a provision to deduct amounts from other State payments?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: If it has been so effective so far and there is progress on the overall overpayments issue, is the Department moving towards this?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: The reaction when people know the Department has these powers is interesting.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: If the Department allows itself additional powers, the position is likely to improve further. Is that the thought process?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: The number of applicants for invalidity pension in 2012 was 50% higher than in 2008. To what does Ms O'Donoghue attribute this?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: In the headline figures included in her opening statement Ms O'Donoghue quoted €18.9 billion for 2014, outside the €600 million in administration costs. Is the reduction from €20.1 billion accounted for largely by reductions in income supports or do other reductions in the Department account for that lower figure?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: When will the card be rolled out completely?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: Because of the new checks, what impact does Ms O'Donoghue envisage it will have on security issues, overpayments, fraud levels, etc.?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: Does it work?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: The Comptroller and Auditor General and Deputy Kieran O'Donnell referred to the issue of there possibly being a large misappropriation. I am trying to figure out its scale and the number of individuals who might have participated in it. We are no stranger to fraud and potential fraud at this committee, even when it comes to Irish Aid money going astray in places like Uganda. However, I...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: Can we get an idea of the number and types of claim involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: It took place over the course of six years. If it amounted to more than €1 million, we would have to be speaking about a sizeable number of people. It would be something that was very organised and involved a large number of participants.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: Overpayments seem to be the topic of the day. The legislation made provision for reductions of 15% in welfare payments to provide for better recovery. The Act also provided for the use of attachment orders. How effective and how widely utilised has this been since the enactment of the legislation? Previously, there was a deduction of €2 or €3 a week. We talked about this...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 37 - Social Protection
Chapter 16 - Expenditure on Welfare and Employment Schemes
Chapter 17 - Regularity of Social Welfare Payments
Chapter 18 - Welfare Overpayment Debts
Chapter 19 - Domiciliary Care Allowance
Chapter 20 - Invalidity Pension
Social Insurance Fund Annual Accounts 2012
(1 May 2014)

John Deasy: The matter needs to take its course before the Department proceeds.

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