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Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Indeed. I thank the witnesses for appearing today.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Is the Deputy happy with the response?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Perhaps we should also send the transcript of this part of the meeting to the CRC, with the appropriate information that has been submitted, and request a full response to the queries raised. I will ask the clerk to do so. Regarding the other section 38 organisations that have not responded or to which the HSE is writing, it should be made clear by this committee that we have serious...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: If it is short.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Have you met with the CEOs or the chairpersons of the boards of the organisations?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: That is most of them.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: In terms of the HSE and the oversight it possibly should have had in place - I am not referring to your watch because it goes back a long time - what has it done or what will it do? Will you wait until the end of this process to decide what is necessary to ensure that this does not happen again and that there will be a unit in your organisation that will insist on compliance? Have you...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: In the same vein and in regard to the report, it is critical of the differences in the salaries being paid to chief executives versus the size of the hospital, project or institution. What steps is the HSE going to take to bring that into some formal structure in order that the people who are chief executives of very large organisations or small bodies will see it reflected in the salary?...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Has the HSE established there is an audit committee or a remuneration committee within those boards and that they have been active in dealing with these payments? Is it just a case of the boards meeting and providing a rubber stamp, with the chairman providing a recommendation? Is there an analysis of what has been going on?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: The answers to the questions have to be determined, and there is also the structure of the salaries being paid to all these people. The HSE will possibly have to make recommendations on these as it is at the coalface and understands the challenge to keep staff. There is a balance that may be difficult to strike relative to what we are speaking about. There is a challenge that will exist in...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: We have agreed this.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: I will make it available to Mr. O'Brien. It is €48,000 per annum for six days a month.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: It is a matter of concern. Mr. O'Brien mentioned the contracts to Deputy O'Donnell. In its discussions with these agencies, hospitals and so on, has the HSE established how many contracts are in place? Presumably there is a contract in place for every single position. Therefore, one could expect a business case relevant to that position in every instance.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: But the HSE has not carried out a complete analysis of all of that yet.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: The HSE will have a busy time between now and Christmas.

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Will we need to come back?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: With regard to Deputy O'Donnell's point about this news damaging the morale of those who are fund-raising or within hospitals on the front line, I raise a question that came about in correspondence. There was a medical superintendent in one of these section 38 hospitals, and now that person has two titles and a top-up. For some, if not all, of the years that he or she held this position,...

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Is Mr. Brazel telling the committee there is no paper trail?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: Does this relate to the same question about circular No. 89 that we discussed with Mr. Brazel last week?

Public Accounts Committee: 2012 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 39 - Health Service Executive
(27 Nov 2013)

John McGuinness: It is important for the committee to bear in mind there is no paper trail granting permission from the Department of Health for any of these payments.

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