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Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: We understand that, but the point is that the HSE did not follow up fully with the CRC and, as a result, the matter drifted along. In the correspondence under discussion the HSE did not engage with the CRC on its legal obligations. Mr. Martin continues to tell us that it will cost a lot of money to break these contracts. There is a bigger issue in respect of section 38 providers. In...

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: That is what it stated. The Department of Health has stated clearly that section 38 provider employees - it emphasised it for the avoidance of doubt - are public servants.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: The correspondence from the Department of Health states clearly that, for the avoidance of doubt, employees of section 38 providers are public servants. Presumably that correspondence issued from Mr. Brazel's section. Will he confirm whether he has corresponded with the Department of Health or the HSE on any of these matters?

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Was Mr. Brazel aware of this matter in 2009?

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: As far as Mr. Brazel is concerned, they are public servants.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: As far as the Department of Health and the HSE are concerned, they are public servants. What does Mr. Nugent think?

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: It is written down before me. The official from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform gave his opinion. It is set out by the Department of Health and repeated by the HSE. However, Mr. Nugent says it is a grey area.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: The other anomaly is that we were given a list of six positions, with salary top-ups applying to five. On the appointment of the new CEO, Mr. Conlan, the recommended pay scale was €83,000, but the client service manager, the administrator and managers of HR and IT would have been on higher salaries. They were being paid salaries and top-up payments.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: That does not address the anomaly that continues. When the next CEO is appointed, he or she will be on a salary of €83,000 and five of the existing managers will be on salaries and top-up payments of approximately €79,000, plus €32,000.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I understand that, but when Mr. O'Brien quoted the law to Mr. Nugent and the CRC, they, by and large, ignored him and trundled on. The HSE did not enter into constructive engagement to assist them in overcoming this difficulty whereby new recruits at the top level of the CRC would be paid less than existing managers. That is a problem for the CRC and the HSE.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I understand that. I am speaking about ways to sensibly resolve some of these issues in order that hearings of this nature could be avoided. We would also have avoided the huge damage done to public confidence and the collections made up and down the country to support charities.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: That is your area of expertise.

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Presumably there was someone equally as qualified as Mr. O'Brien in that position back then and he or she did not identify that there was a problem that needed to be addressed. On the other hand, with regard to the CRC as far as I can see from this correspondence the HSE just carried on and I believe it no intention of changing things. There is a lot correspondence but it tells the one...

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Where is that?

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: What date was it?

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: I raised this with Mr. Cathal Magee when he was before us at a meeting of the committee. I asked him specifically about section 38 agencies, how they were accountable and if there was an audit in respect of their compliance in terms of the understanding they have with the HSE regarding the funds of which they are in receipt. In honesty, only after that, did the HSE get serious about it....

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: What letter is that?

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Is it fair to say that in respect of the public pay policy and the HSE's audit or control of that, €106,000 was being paid to Mr. Kiely and once the HSE established that control it was not that concerned about the €116,000 or the rest of it? I know Ms McGuinness's letter was before Mr. Peelo's response but if I got his response, I would have responded immediately and told him...

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: Can I ask Mr. Nugent about the company providing appliances for mobility? What is the background to that? How was it established? Who established it?

Public Accounts Committee: Section 38 - Agencies Remuneration (11 Dec 2013)

John McGuinness: It is okay.

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