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Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Mr. Fraser mentioned that the €2.4 million accounted for events as well.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: That is what I am saying. The devil is in the detail. I am only asking my question in the context of Deputy Connolly's questions. We are discussing an amount in the OPW's Vote that is similar to expenditure relating to the President's Establishment. I am trying to get a true reflection of the cost. Officials from the OPW will appear before us in a couple of weeks.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Is it fully accountable for how that amount is arrived at?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: I will revert to the OPW, but let us park it for a second. The Comptroller and Auditor General raised the issue. Let us turn to the Office of the Minister for Justice and Equality in terms of An Garda Síochána. How was that expenditure figure arrived at? I presume all of it relates to wages.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Okay. If there was a security review at the Áras, given how someone was able to drive through the gates last week and go to the President's office to say "Hello", and the Commissioner's analysis called for additional security, would that request be forwarded by the Office of the President to the Minister for Justice and Equality for appraisal and how would it be signed off on? Do the...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: I understand that. I am trying-----

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: I appreciate that. Cumulative expenses of €4.6 million are not falling directly under the Office of the President but are being spent on that office. It is a bit like local government, with money being spent on other areas. Is it the case that the Garda Commissioner would, for example, consider last week's situation of someone going straight through the gates and saying "Hello" to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: No, but it was €344,000 the previous year. I am trying to understand how the figure could have changed from one year to the next and whether a demand was made by the Office of the President for a certain amount of expenditure to cater for a particular event, for example.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: No, I never asked about it. I am only trying to understand the process.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: When I use the word "demand", I mean an official request.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: I am trying to extrapolate something. There is €4.6 million being spent on the President's Establishment by other Departments and it is not coming from its Vote. In order to examine it, we would have to spend days in having the individual Accounting Officers come and asking them what they are doing in terms of spending on the President's Establishment. By the way, if they are...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Okay, we do not know. That goes to the root of the issue in this interaction. Moneys are being spent on the President's Establishment that do not come within the remit of the supposed Accounting Officer but cumulatively the cost is very big. As Deputy Bobby Aylward said, they give a proper and true reflection of the cost of the Office of the President. Perhaps I might ask the Comptroller...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Would the Office of the President alert the Accounting Officer to the need for additional expenditure by the Department in certain areas to cover its costs?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: Let us take, for example, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. In 2016 there were seven State visits approved by the Office of the President, although I think the number came in at nine in the end. How does that work? Is it the Office of the President that sets down the expenditure figure and how it will work or is it the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade? I am trying to...

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: I get that. I am trying to get a feel for whether it is the individual Departments that make adjudications on the Office of the President or whether it is the office that makes requests of the individual Departments in terms of how the figure for expenditure anticipated for a coming year is arrived at. Who is making the judgment call on how much it should cost and how much it will cost?

Public Accounts Committee: 2016 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Vote 1 - President's Establishment
(25 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: There is a significant increase in the allocation to the OPW, which accounts for €2.5 million, a similar amount to the President's Establishment. That cannot be put down to the cost of events.

Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (20 Sep 2018)

Shane Cassells: I thank the Chairman. I was open to listening to everyone's opinion on the suggestion put forward. The Comptroller and Auditor General, the person on whom we rely for advice, has advised us what we would be examining is how money is spent, not why it is spent. This sets the parameters for any work that will be done in this room. This debate has spiralled in other spheres, despite the...

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