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Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I accept that there is a normal process leading to legislative change. However, if the Cabinet has agreed the principles of that legislative change, I cannot see any reason what the Cabinet agreed should not be laid out for public consideration at this stage. I know that the drafting process involves putting together heads of a Bill and then pre-legislative scrutiny in the ordinary course...

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I have no problem with that.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I have no problem-----

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: There is no White Paper here. We do not know what is really being proposed.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I take the point Senator Wall makes, which is reasonable. While the Tánaiste says some of the things that are now proposed are in line with the report by the Commission on the Defence Forces, but we presume that we will be notified if there are going to be deviations from that or if some aspects of the report are not going to be followed. We are entitled to that kind of general information.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I do not see why we should wait until the Bill is published.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: No, I do not accept that at all.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: With respect, and through the Chair, if I stood up when I was a Minister and said I was going to reform An Garda Síochána and brought a memorandum to the Cabinet saying that, and then a debate on An Garda Síochána took place in the following days in Dáil Éireann or Seanad Éireann, and I went in and said that Members would find out in the fullness of time...

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: -----but I imagine that I would at least inform each House of Parliament what it was that the Government had agreed. That is all I am asking for.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I move amendment No. 2: In page 9, lines 10 and 11, to delete "in relation to a political matter or matter of Government policy" and substitute "in relation to a matter of political controversy". This proposal is to delete the words "in relation to a political matter or matter of Government policy" and substitute "in relation to a matter of political controversy". The relevant section,...

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: Unknowable.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: With respect, that means that somebody who is not a member of such an organisation cannot comment even on his or her organisation in public statements. If RACO says it opposes X, Y and Z, and that is permitted under section 24, 2A and 3A, it means that somebody else in the Defence Forces cannot even publicly disagree with his or her own representative organisation on the matter because he or...

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: Yes, but, as I see it, the amendments made by section 24 of this Bill accord to members of a representative organisation the right to publicly articulate, in good faith, a position which could be a matter of public policy or not, but which concerns the activities of that representative organisation. What worries me is, the right to comment or to contradict that is taken away from individual...

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: He would not be a member. A person who is not a member or a spokesman of the organisation would not have that standing.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: That is fine at a general meeting, but if people are listening to what goes on the RTÉ Radio 1 “Morning Ireland” programme, they cannot comment in response. Going to a general meeting is a different matter, and waiting for that to be convened. If you are a member of the Defence Forces and a representative organisation says something about a political matter or Government...

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: Yes, and can claim to represent its members.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: No, but as I read what the Minister is proposing, somebody on behalf of a representative body is entitled to comment on the proper subject matter of the things that that representative association gets involved in, such as service conditions, accommodation, pensions, you name it. If they do so in public, the consequences of this amendment that we are now proposing, is that an individual...

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I take it that the Tánaiste will confirm that these restrictions only apply to members of the permanent Defence Forces and do not apply to reservists. I think that is the case, although the number of reservists has dwindled to practically none.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: I will believe that when I see it. It is interesting that reservists seem to be in a position to attend marches and parades in uniform whereas others are not. This section needs to be thought out again. It is strange that reservists could do the things set out in paragraph (a) of this new subsection while permanent members of the Defence Forces cannot.

Seanad: Defence (Amendment) Bill 2024: Committee Stage (3 Jul 2024)

Michael McDowell: Yes, and we all know that the Leader of this House, Senator Chambers, was a member of the Reserve Defence Forces.

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