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Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Seán Fleming: The sequence of speakers will be as follows. The first speaker will be Deputy Marc MacSharry who will be followed by Deputies David Cullinane, Josepha Madigan, Shane Cassells, Alan Kelly and Mary Lou McDonald in that order.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Marc MacSharry: I will swap with Shane Deputy Cassells, if that is okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: This is more than a massive failure on their behalf. Mr. McCarthy has alluded to that. Would Mr. McCarthy agree that it is more than a massive failing on their behalf in this respect?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: I suppose we have them here later.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Ministers talking out of both sides of their mouth is not-----

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Mr. McDonagh spoke about the slow pace between 2010 and 2013 and said that influenced the decision. He talked about frustration. Did frustration get the better of him? Was that an instigative factor?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: I am not asking Mr. Daly------

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Has there been an interaction between NAMA's office and him or his office to discuss that? Has the Department of Finance sought explanations for the discount and the rationale behind applying it? Have the Department, the senior officials and the Minister accepted NAMA's rationale over the past few months?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: They are just as important to the running of the State.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: NAMA sent that out in a circular to the Cabinet and because there was no pushback it takes that as acceptance of the rationale for the discount.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: That is perfectly fine. Mr. Daly has been very careful not to engage in that telephone call, was there ever an attempt by the Department or anyone representing the Minister to seek his view on that?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Mr. Daly has summed it up again by saying that if there was not a headline saying probable loss NAMA would not be here. Mr. McEnery gave a passionate defence of the discount. Does the Minister for Finance accept the rationale, the discount applied and the price achieved for that disposal?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Opinion pieces are being written in the newspapers about - this goes to the heart of the matter - people's motivation. We can discuss the cost of the loan all day and whether there was a loss to the taxpayer. However, the real thing goes on about people's motivation in terms of the deal.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Has the Minister not contacted Mr. Daly or any other senior NAMA official to discuss the understanding? It is a topical issue. It is not too often people in the local pub discuss NAMA. The Minister has to be cognisant of the fact that this affects the ordinary person on the street. Has he picked up the telephone and asked Mr. Daly, one to one, his stance on this issue?

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Okay. I have a limited amount of time. In respect of the process of sale and record keeping, Mr. McCarthy said that there were no adequate records of the key decisions for Project Eagle kept by NAMA. Is that one of the most worrying aspects of this for Mr. McCarthy in his report? It obviously gives rise to potential assertions in respect of incompetency at the worst and otherwise at...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: I am reading between the lines. Mr. McCarthy has left us hanging. He has made this statement that has captured the public imagination and brought people down a certain road. He has said those in NAMA were more focused on their legal obligations rather than what they should have been doing as part of a robust body. Mr. McCarthy has given a taste and left us hanging. What I am asking is...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

...reasons, when strategically repositioning a business, decide that he or she does not want to be in a particular line of business and decide to get out of it, take a loss and move on. Deputy Shane Cassells:Okay.

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: I thank the Chairman and Mr. McCarthy. Two weeks ago, when this broke in the media in terms of the work that was going to be conducted, I thought one of the most striking comments was from Sean Whelan in RTE. He referred to what was the unprecedented stand-off between Mr. McCarthy's office and NAMA, which obviously generated and captured the public attention. We have then had a series of...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: In terms of the work of this committee, the sheer lack of a paper trail is what really goes to the heart of this matter and probably leaves more questions than answers. In respect of the allegations of Mr. Cushnahan's involvement, in the conclusions of the Comptroller and Auditor General, in an arrangement to share fees with Brown Rudnick, this warranted more action by NAMA when the matter...

Public Accounts Committee: Special Report No. 94 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: National Asset Management Agency Sale of Project Eagle (29 Sep 2016)

Shane Cassells: Mr. McCarthy stated this morning that "there [may be] strategic and commercial reasons why NAMA might prefer an early loan sale" and that it is a business decision and not something he would comment on. In response to Deputy Burke, Mr. McCarthy said that once they went for that option, there was an immediate acceptance that there was going to be a bigger discount, so Mr. McCarthy is...

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