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Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: The Senator's amendment proposes that a sunset clause be inserted into the Bill. This suggestion was debated in the other House at some length and was also mentioned on Second Stage in this House. While I have reflected on the issue, I have not changed my mind on it. Senator Cummins is aware that Deputy Ó Snodaigh of Sinn Féin tabled an amendment on Report Stage in the other House, the...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: I will outline the Government's position on the Hederman committee report. The provision in the Constitution for special criminal courts is not an emergency provision. It comes into play when the ordinary courts are inadequate for the administration of justice. While it is part of the Constitution, it is not an emergency extra-constitutional arrangement. We have an obligation to ensure that...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: I understand the purpose of the amendments is to insert references to the published opinions of the European Parliament. For ease of reference, we have gone to the trouble of scheduling the full text of the framework decisions in both the Irish and English languages in Schedule 1 to the Bill. On amendment No. 3, the reference to the framework decision which is made in the Bill is included in...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: I am grateful to the Senator for raising this issue. Since publication of the Bill several concerns have been expressed about the possibility that a person engaged in activity against an oppressive or tyrannical regime might be prosecuted and convicted under the provisions of the Bill. As I said on Committee Stage in the other House, however, there is no solution to the issue which these...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: I may get into trouble by saying this but at present there is a major controversy as to whether it is possible, right or appropriate for liberal democracies to engage in regime change to bring about liberal democracy, as we see it, in places where we say it does not exist. I do not want to get involved in that debate here. While Senator Tuffy advances the term "democratic", I must deal with...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: I acknowledge that the Senator raises an interesting and important issue, namely, whether the decision of the Director of Public Prosecutions to refer a case to the Special Criminal Court should be one with reasons attached to it. The purpose of giving reasons is obviously with a view in some way to testing the decision to find if it was proper or to challenge the reasoning given. This raises...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: It is my intention to introduce a further amendment on Report Stage. As the House is aware, it is the Government's intention to establish a second Special Criminal Court. That is being done with a view to ensuring that people awaiting trial would not face lengthy delays. The establishment of two such courts means that the trial of offences will be speeded up. It will no longer be a matter of...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: I think we are talking about two separate things. I am signalling to the House what I propose to do on Report Stage. I think Senator Cummins is asking me about the retention of communications data.

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: The purpose of this and subsequent amendments is to give a solid basis in Irish law to the retention of communication data and to protect people in a way that is not done at the moment. Information concerning the use made of communications services is an essential aid to the Garda Síochána in the fight against crime and in combating terrorism and, together with the Defence Forces, the...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: They have been in place since 1993, a fairly long time.

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: Prior to that it was done by warrant under some postal Act of the late 19th century and a decision of the Court of Appeal or the House of Lords had interpreted the term "postal packet" as being broad enough to include a telephone call. That was some creative judging. It was on that flimsy basis that this kind of work was done until comparatively recently. In 1993 the Government introduced...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: The content is not covered. This is purely data on the fact that a transaction has taken place through a telecommunications company.

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: I presume the content is not recorded. The law in regard to content is as I have described it and requires ministerial intervention.

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: Clearly it is impractical to have ministerial intervention in every request for who telephoned who. As a matter of practicality in the investigation of, say, a kidnapping, a bank robbery or whatever, that work would involve looking at a suspect and seeing who did the suspect telephone during the relevant period. It might also involve looking at the suspect's contacts. I would spend all my...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: The position is that under the 1993 Act a senior Garda officer can apply to a telecommunications company for access to its telecommunications data in pursuit of an investigation of a serious offence. Today as we speak, all of us are subject to the fact that our telephone transactions are recorded and accessible in that scenario. We do not all ask who is applying for access to our telephone...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: It is a matter of degree. Perhaps I should inform the House that on one occasion I received a visitor in my Department when my office was in the other building on St. Stephen's Green. He was a Canadian data protection commissioner. He told me it was his strong view that there should be no retention of any kind. I asked him if he did not regard that as a very strong position to take and he...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: No, just his expenses. In my view whether the period is six months or 36 months makes very little difference. I do not think that with these safeguards in particular it is a matter of great importance. I have always been unimpressed by the arguments that material deleted after a period of time increases one's dignity and rights as a human being. This notion that if, for instance, I gave a...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: If as frequently happens, somebody says they are being subjected to harassment or nuisance calls, all the Garda can establish is that one phone contacted another at a particular time and for a particular length of time. The Senator can be reassured that the content of the call is not recorded. What the Senator says on the phone is not on some recording device, unless the Minister, on foot of...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: What is meant in the Bill is there should be an obligation to keep data which is currently generally kept. This means that a phone company could not simply say it does not keep data at all. In such a situation, all the baddies in the world would use that phone company. If one of the three mobile phone companies decided not to keep any data and it was therefore never possible to establish...

Seanad: Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Bill 2002: Committee Stage. (3 Feb 2005)

Michael McDowell: We have already debated the principle involved in this amendment.

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