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Public Accounts Committee: Business of Committee (13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: Is it the case that representative of Irish Aid will also be present at the meeting?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: I welcome the witnesses and thank them for their attendance. I thank Mr. Murphy for his presentation. Last week's meeting was attended by officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I have some questions which I also asked them last week. I wish to discuss the evaluation of the performance of public private partnerships in this country, what has been learned from...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: I refer to the PF2 model. My understanding is that the Chancellor considered the British taxpayer should take a larger equity stake in the proposed new projects. Is this conclusion applicable to projects here?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: Is that reaction not inevitable? If a new model aims to change the nature of the engagement of the private sector with public projects, the initial reaction of the sector will never be the giving of approval.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: Mr. Murphy's assessment of the proposed model in the United Kingdom is that the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: It will be a case of seeing how many are willing to participate.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: Where does Scotland stand in terms of the deployment of that model? At what point will we be able to discover whether our model is as strong as it can be? Can we learn from Scotland and what is being planned in the United Kingdom?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: At what level?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: Has any project been funded using this new model?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: It is out in the market and we must wait and see what will be the degree of participation.

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: At what point will this become clear? Will it be during next year?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: Are there any signs that other countries, particularly in Europe, are seeking to develop or change their models of funding in a similar way to the UK?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: On the return on such investments to the State and the private investor, one of the themes we explored last week is the difficulty in accessing, from our point of view, whether those returns are being properly monitored, given the need for commercial sensitivity and for certain public information not to be released into the public domain. The Comptroller and Auditor General, in his opening...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: What kinds of risks are involved?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: What is the PSB?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: I assume what Mr. Murphy is referring to is the cost of a project if it were funded through conventional Exchequer means. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: In light of the comment by Mr. Murphy that the first bundle of projects was a pathfinder, how have the appraisal techniques for these projects changed over time to reflect the learning the State has accrued from school projects and what has happened elsewhere?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: With regard to that process, one of the aspects we examined last week was the project appraisal stage and how we can ensure targets laid out for the taxpayer are being met. A point I explored last week is that it is apparent that very rigorous appraisal takes place at the capital stage of a project and I sought to explore what happens when the project moves beyond that stage. When a project...

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: Could Mr. Murphy talk me through how that works?

Public Accounts Committee: 2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
2011 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 6 - Financial Commitments under Public Private Partnerships
National Development Finance Agency Financial Statements 2011
(13 Dec 2012)

Paschal Donohoe: What is the position with regard to making that kind of work fully available publicly? Would the agency come up against a commercial sensitivity barrier in trying to do that?

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