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Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I move amendment No. 8: In page 8, subsection (2), line 9, after "information" to insert "on that particular matter".

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: Section 44(2) provides for permission to seek an amendment to the terms of reference of an established tribunal so that where a tribunal of inquiry is established to inquire into any part of a matter that is within a commission's terms of reference, those terms shall be amended by the Minister which set it up or by the Government to take account of the inquiry. I presume this is possible.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: If another tribunal is established?

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: This section relates to membership. One of our tribunals has three members and this was done to ensure that a number of investigations could take place at the same time. One could have three modules of the tribunal working at the same time, but that has not happened. Is it possible under subsection (2), which states that each member of a commission is to be appointed by the specified Minister...

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I was reading this at 11.30 p.m. last night and all these questions started to flow from the pages.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I know.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: They were. I cannot understand the part of this section which states "(including barristers and solicitors)" regarding the advice and assistance people can get and which the chairperson of the commission can get also. Section 8(1)(a) states that persons can be appointed "with relevant qualifications and experience (including barristers and solicitors) to advise or assist the commission in...

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: The objective of these commissions is to require a whole range of other professional people, such as accountants. One does not need solicitors and barristers for much of this stuff anyway. When I read this last night at 11.30 p.m. with my Horlicks in one hand and the legislation in the other, I had to ask why there was a special reference to them at all. It is clear that if one appoints...

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: To satisfy them.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: Absolutely.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I move amendment No. 12: In page 11, between lines 2 and 3, to insert the following subsection: "(2) All queries and requests concerning the— (i) composition, (ii) terms of reference, (iii) staffing, and (iv) role of a commission shall be conducted between a commission and the Clerk of each House of the Oireachtas.". This amendment attempts to include a new subsection. It is a slight...

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: Not for the first time.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: Where queries and requests come from the commission to the Minister, will the Minister automatically inform both Houses that such a request has been made? That in no way violates the objectives of the commissions, namely to get to the truth speedily. We all need to be on the one side in terms of what is required. Some commissions may require substantial resources while others may not. Some...

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I move amendment No. 13: In page 11, subsection (2), line 8, to delete "shall" and substitute "may". This amendment seeks to delete the word "shall" and substitute "may" in reference to the conduct of investigations. As drafted, the section appears to make the facilitation of co-operation mandatory. This could require the commissions to travel to any destination at the request of a witness....

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: No. It is different.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I understand what the Minister of State is saying but I feel that the commission needs to be given the flexibility to do its job. Inserting the word "shall" would put the onus of responsibility on the commission to follow up every single lead, particularly in respect of voluntary co-operation. I respect what the Minister of State has said, however, and in that context I will withdraw the...

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I move amendment No. 15: In page 12, subsection (2), line 27, to delete "require" and substitute "compel". Section 12(1) imposes an obligation on the commission to disclose the substance of evidence to certain persons. Section 12(2) suggests that the obligation to disclose evidence does not require the disclosure of the source of that evidence. That is the distinction. The amendment seeks to...

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: It is a subtle difference.

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: I move amendment No. 17: In page 13, subsection (2), line 2, after "shall" to insert "in so far as is practicable,". This section refers to the duty to inform witnesses of the commission's powers and to advise them of their own rights and obligations. It is important that the commission does this concerning any person who is asked to co-operate with and give evidence to the commission....

Seanad: Commissions of Investigation Bill 2003: Committee Stage. (6 Jul 2004)

Brian Hayes: While I accept all of that there is another problem that must be confronted. We are not establishing a court. The tribunals of inquiry are not courts although they are judicial instruments up to a point. We have learned the lesson from the tribunal difficulties that if there is any kind of glitch, ultimately people who may have done some wrong run to the High Court and attempt to attack the...

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