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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Training could be included also.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: We will see if we can find a suitable slot for it. The Deputy might do the same.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Again, I have given careful consideration to this amendment. I am concerned that the implications might be somewhat different from what the Deputy intends. A failure on the part of a person to comply with a legal obligation is listed as one of the relevant wrongdoings in section 5(3)(b). Therefore a breach of the statutory code would represent a breach of such a legal obligation and may...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: That is a statutory code. I am not sure, off the top of my head, whether there is a legal underpinning of the code of conduct for councillors. I am informed that the Local Government Act 2012 does underpin that for councillors. It is a statutory basis for a code of conduct; in other words, the code of conduct flows from a statutory enactment.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Yes.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: If it is a local shop rule, it is not.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy has encapsulated the position. It is a graded level of disclosure. While I believe, and it should be encouraged, that the vast bulk of the initial reporting of wrongdoing should be to the employer within the workplace, there should be a mechanism to allow a whisteblower to go beyond that, either if he is not listened to or if no action is taken on foot of it. The whole structure...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I have carefully examined this structure. Last year I held discussions in London with colleagues there with long experience of this type of legislation. In fact, I was asked to make a presentation on our legislation, which is now regarded as cutting edge. I made several changes to the original draft on foot of these discussions and the experience in the United Kingdom. Deputy Mary Lou...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I have examined the two amendments in which the Deputy proposes to delete the words "trade union official" from the definition of a legal adviser and create a new area for the giving of advice. I thank her for the amendments and realise this matter was raised on Second Stage. The Deputy is aware that under section 9, as drafted, a worker has the protections provided by the legislation in...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: They are very expert in the law and, in fact, the advice I have from the Office of the Attorney General is that their advice actually does constitute legal advice. That is probably also true in respect of what the Deputy does in her clinics, which is something for us all to think about from our own perspectives.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: That is what I intend to examine. I do not want to disadvantage workers who go to their trade union for advice which falls into the legal definition of legal advice but is not formally catered for in the Bill. Deputy McDonald's amendment No. 6 would exclude trade union representatives from giving such advice because it would not be captured in the definition. The Deputy proposes to remedy...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: There is a complexity attached to this issue. I have been operating out of a trade union house for the past 30 years. This particular union employs a firm of lawyers, but the client is the trade union, not the individual union member. That is to say, the client relationship is with the union itself, not with any individual who is a member of the union.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: It is part of the dilemma.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: That is what I propose to do. I have stress-tested the argument from the Deputy's perspective, but I remain to be convinced. I need to have another discussion with the Attorney General about what constitutes legal advice, who can impart legal advice and who should be protected by this provision.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 9: In page 11, to delete lines 27 to 29.The effect of this amendment is to delete subsection 10(3)(d) of the Bill as published. Subsection 10(1) sets out the circumstances under which a disclosure made to a person other than an employer, a prescribed person or a Minister will attract the protections of the Bill. One of the circumstances listed is where, in all the...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Physically and practically.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I move amendment No. 10: In page 12, line 21, to delete “(f)” and substitute “(e)”.These amendments go to the heart of the changes we want to make. At the conclusion of the Second Stage debate, I indicated that work involving officials from my Department and their counterparts from the Department of Justice and Equality was under way in order to determine how best...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: I did.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Yes, it should be Nos. 10 and 11. As I was saying, I am of the view that it would be of assistance if I began by addressing amendment No. 18. This amendment will bring to an end the separate arrangements put in place in the Garda Síochána Act in respect of members of the force. Amendment No. 18 relates to section 19 of the Bill as it currently stands. As originally envisaged,...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Protected Disclosures Bill 2013: Committee Stage (14 May 2014)

Brendan Howlin: Then what?

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