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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: How is money withheld? What money does the office of the regulator have that it would withhold?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: The regulator could withhold it from there?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Is there a specific amount relevant to a sanction?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: How much can the regulator withhold, should it decide to do so and what is the limit?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Ms Boate might give us the range when she has it to hand. In regard to the €16 million left over from the previous licence in terms of unclaimed prizes, does the office of the regulator have any input into the decision-making process in that regard?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: It has remained unclear for how many years? Was it from 2014 onwards?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Is there any light at the end of the tunnel for the €16 million? Is it gaining interest?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: The balance after legal fees will be greatly reduced.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: That is the matter of the €16 million. We will move to reflecting on the old licence. A total of 2% of sales ended up as unclaimed prizes - that was roughly the guide.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Yes, under the old licence the amount was €15 million. That amounts to 2% of sales in the sense of analysing how much money was left in unclaimed prizes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Is it fair to ask you, Ms Boate? You have the knowledge from looking at the old licence and the new licence. You have the figures or the general differences that exist in the comparison of both licences. I know that you have looked at this because you mentioned it earlier, now that I think of it. Have you ever looked at the media coverage of this and the lack of transparency that has...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Let us use the figures that we have seen reported in the media. They suggest that for each year there are unclaimed prizes amounting to approximately €15 million. Over the 20 years of the licence, that would give the company operating the licence now a considerable advantage.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: It is in terms of the money going directly to its marketing budget.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Who decides on the percentage going to each share?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: Is it contained rigidly in the licence that a given percentage of unclaimed prizes-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: The wording relating to that is "shall" and "may". There is nothing definite in the licence conditions that tells the operator how much must be used for top-up prizes, incremental marketing or good causes. For example, if €15 million in prizes is unclaimed in one year, the operator can split that amount in any way it wishes, weight it towards marketing and the regulator can do...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: If the figures for the old lottery operator are applied to the current licence, it is possible for the operator to tilt the balance in favour of its own marketing and allocate very little for top-up prizes and good causes. This means the operator is just tipping its hat at the legislation and nothing can be done because of the words "shall" and "may" and the lack of a definite role for the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: I understand that but what I have to get at here on behalf of the taxpayer who has an interest in this is the deal that was done for the sale of the licence that resulted in one sentence alone giving the operator discretion over the distribution of €15 million per year.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: It is based on figures from the old lottery operator.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach: Overview of Operations of the National Lottery: Discussion (24 Apr 2018)

John McGuinness: The previous lottery operator said that approximately 2% of the general figure related to unclaimed prizes. If that is used as a guideline, the amount works out at €15 million. The licence was sold for €405 million and over the next 20 years, the company is in a position to have discretion over the disbursement of €15 million annually, which amounts to €300...

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