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Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: I accept that the 20% recognition rate triggers certain consequences, but am I right in thinking it has to be part of the border procedure before that kicks in?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: I see. Turning to Mr. Leonard, I do not know whether he was involved personally in the A and B case-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: Mr. Leonard can speak more freely about it, therefore. In that case, it seems that a lot of Ms Justice Phelan's findings went far beyond mere non-compliance with EU safe country criteria by the Minister's original determination and that there were other issues the judge parked, so to speak. Are they going to come back and bite us? Does Mr. Leonard have any insight into the capacity of the...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: It will not be a simple, technical Bill, therefore, that tweaks one little thing. If we are to deal with all the issues raised in the judgment, a lot of legislation will be involved. Does Mr. Leonard agree?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: Will the Rwanda plan disappear as an issue, in Mr. Leonard's view?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: If it does go ahead, however, and if the UK does start deporting people to Rwanda, are our courts going to say we will not deport people to the UK as a safe country?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: I wish to return to the issue of whether the border procedures apply to somebody who has been in this State for some time. I would like clarity on that. I am looking at the briefing paper we got from the Library and Research Service. It states: ... on 20 December 2023 concerning the Pact, the core aim of the proposed Screening Regulation to "strengthen control of persons at external...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: Will that be a matter of Irish law or EU law? Is this an additional thing we can do or are obliged to do?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: It is an optional thing for legislation, is it?

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: Regarding the legislation the Minister brought to Cabinet today and got authority to draft or proceed with, does that legislation deal with the Rwanda question? In other words, does it deal with a scenario were somebody comes through the process in Ireland who we eventually want to send back to the UK? They can make the point that they will not go back because the Rwanda policy has been...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: Yes, I know the procedural ones but this Rwanda question-----

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: I accept that is the Department's intention. However, as I understand it, from both ECHR law and the court decisions until now by the Supreme Court in England, the use of Rwanda is considered unlawful under international law. I am asking a very simple question. I wonder is a lot of this academic, because people will actually be able to say to the Irish courts that what Ms Justice Phelan...

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: We were told that 80% of asylum seekers were coming from the UK. I am just wondering if we are talking about something that is going to come unstuck, because 80% of asylum seekers will be able to object to being sent back to the UK as long as the Rwanda law remains in place.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: I will leave it at that, Chair.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: On a point of order, I understand that we will be finishing at 7 p.m. and will say that we have considered the report.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: There was discussion about us sending a letter in addition to that. Could that be deferred until the members of the committee can absorb what they have heard today? As I understand it, the letter is not official.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: I am under pressure timewise.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: Yes.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: Yes. I am just trying to work out where we are going.

Joint Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality: EU Regulations and Directive on International Protection, Asylum and Migration: Discussion (Resumed) (30 Apr 2024)

Michael McDowell: My problem is that many members of the committee are not here now and will not be here at 7 p.m.

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