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Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Business of Select Committee (12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: No apologies have been received. Before commencing our consideration of the Revised Estimates and inviting the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality to join us, we shall discuss one matter. If everyone listens to me carefully, I propose that we go into private session for five minutes for the purpose of hearing a short briefing by the Oireachtas financial scrutiny team. Mr....

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I welcome the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality and her officials. The purpose of the meeting is to consider the Revised Estimates in the Justice group of Votes for 2017 - Votes 16, 20 to 25, inclusive, and 41. The format of the meeting will be that we will go through the Revised Estimates Vote by Vote. In the case of Vote 24 - Justice and Equality, we will proceed...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I thank the Minister for her opening statement. The committee is more than aware of the breadth of issues it has to address under this Vote. We will commence with Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána. I ask members to indicate at the commencement of their contribution the particular subhead they wish to address.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Deputy Chambers has raised a very important issue. I can still hear the echo of the president of the AGSI, who was on our screens over the past 24 hours, making the point that there is insufficient investment in training of existing, serving members of the Garda Síochána.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Just one last comment from the Chair on this before I return to Deputy Chambers. Is that only in terms of in-service and ongoing training? I remember very well what the spokeswoman said. It is even in respect of awareness of the law. This is absolutely incredible. It really is not about new recruits. It is certainly about in-service training and upskilling at every level through the...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Is this Deputy Chambers's final question?

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Before I call the next speaker, I have to give members a heads up. We have 20 minutes left with seven sections to be discussed apart from the Garda Vote. We will have to run over time but a joint committee meeting is scheduled which other committee members will expect to attend. I ask members to be as precise as possible with their questions and, equally, I ask the Minister to be precise...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: This is not just about a particular case but any and all of these cases.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: No. We are dealing with the Garda Vote at present. On foot of what Deputy Wallace asked earlier, in your reply you suggested that the cost for any and all of these cases - I am not interested in the specifics - could be under the training and development Vote. This refers back to Deputy Jack Chambers's line of questioning earlier.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: This is a little more than incidental expenses.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: It must be said, in line with what was already reflected in the questions posed by Deputy Jack Chambers and to which I added mine, that there is an urgency to review how you categorise spending in this regard. I call Deputy Colm Brophy.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: We will move on from Vote 20 - Garda Síochána to each of the others. Vote 21 - Prisons is next and I invite questions from members.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I did not draw up the methodology but I am trying to deal with what I have been given.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: If there are no questions, I will move on. I invite members to ask questions on Vote 22 - Courts Service.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: Is it about Tralee?

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: There is no response required to that comment from the Deputy. I have a question on Vote 22 - Courts Service. The oversight of the wards of court moneys comes under the Courts Service. Where is that shown in the figures for Vote 22? Does the Department have a specific figure for wards of court? It is one of the items on this committee's work programme for this year. It would be...

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: I appreciate that. The Minister is talking about the specific awards for the children concerned but the cost of the oversight management of the actual maintenance of the service-----

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: The cost nevertheless would be in here.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: It is something to come back to. We will move on to Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority. I invite questions from members. We note from the Minister's opening remarks that there is an amalgamation in train.

Select Committee on Justice and Equality: Estimates for Public Services 2017
Vote 16 - Valuation Office (Revised)
Vote 20 - An Garda Síochána (Revised)
Vote 21 - Prisons (Revised)
Vote 22 - Courts Service (Revised)
Vote 23 - Property Registration Authority (Revised)
Vote 24 - Justice and Equality (Revised)
Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission (Revised)
Vote 41 - Policing Authority (Revised)
(12 Apr 2017)

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin: We will move on to Vote 24 - Justice and Equality. As this Vote consists of several programmes I will list them and if members want they can deal with them specifically. They are: Programme A - Leadership in and Oversight of Justice and Equality Policy and Delivery; B - A Safe and Secure Ireland; C - Access to Justice for All; D - An Equal and Inclusive Society and E - An Efficient...

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