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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The NTMA was not encompassed at all under FOI.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Except in so far as we have outlined.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I thank Deputy Murphy. It is encompassed and I hope it will be satisfactorily dealt with when the questions are asked but we need to get the legislation enacted first. I genuinely do not want to make any political points about this but this is pushing back a huge set of boulders against a degree of resistance and it is an extremely good platform to have. We will not agree on every aspect...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I do not think Deputy Fleming really wants that.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: He wants to make a point in regard to the letters. I have to take advice on whether those letters would be part of the administrative release. I have asked for clarity on that and I will come back to Deputy Fleming on Report Stage. I think they may well be and if they are, it will be the first time such letters are released.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: They were not released under the Croke Park agreement and the other national agreements prior to this. It is in that context that they were not released on this occasion but I will clarify that matter for the Deputy on Report Stage. I have to be more circumspect in what I say about the terms and conditions of those in the NTMA. Deputy Fleming is right that my instinctive position is that...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: -----they would have an awful lot to say about that. I do not want to exaggerate it but there are always countervailing pulls on them to work elsewhere. If we are to get people of the quality we need to do this really specialist work, we need to be able to pay rates that will hold on to them. What we have got in direct negotiations is that we will have the information released at least in...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy is right. The Cabinet acts collectively and we debated this in detail. We make a decision to do right by the State. If I was convinced it would do no harm to have full disclosure on these matters, that is what I would push for but I accepted the arguments and the presentations that we need to ensure we have these people and that this is as far as we can go at this stage.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: This is virgin territory, remember.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: These were excluded entirely up to this point.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The definition proposed by Deputy Murphy and supported by Deputy Boyd Barrett is based on the definition set out in the access to information on the environment regulations which transposed the requirements of EU Directive 2003/4/EC on public access to information on the environment, known as the Aarhus Convention. The definition in the convention and the regulations was left deliberately...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I listened to Deputy Boyd Barrett's point and he is correct. We all impact on the environment. I was in Rio and as the then Minister for the Environment I attended the five year review of the Earth Summit, known as Rio plus 5 in 1977. I understand the scale of what was agreed at the summit. The broad stroke has to be written into legislation that is practical and meaningful. As I said...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: They are included.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Not tribunals to which the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence)Act 1921 applies, but the appeals bodies and so on that the Deputy raised.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: As I said, the amendment is to the definition of public bodies, which is unnecessary in that tribunals are entities established under statute and appointed by Government and are encompassed by this FOI legislation, unless specifically exempted or excluded, which they are not. The real issue, as I understand it, is that amendment No. 14 goes back to the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I am saving never. It is a matter for the tribunal itself. Obviously one cannot have persons saying they do not agree with the conclusions of the tribunal so that they will selectively ask for information and release of documentation that supports their view. The idea is that all data are presented to a tribunal, weighed impartially by it and it comes to conclusions.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Section 6 of the Bill contains a generic definition of what constitutes a public body, a definition we have already discussed. This will include the widest possible definition of public bodies, including a number of significant high profile bodies which previously were excluded. We have referenced some of them. Furthermore and more importantly in the context of the Deputy's amendment, all...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy will note that subsection (7)(c) reads: Where an order is proposed to be made under paragraph (a), a draft of the order shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the order shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each such House.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That is not what I read.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: All such exclusions would require a vote.

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