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Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: He wants a few brought in because he regards them as bad. However, we must apply the principle of uniform exclusion for the commercial semi-states to operate in a highly competitive market. Then we come to another net issue.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I indicated during our pre-legislative discussion that I would reflect on the scenario in which there is no competition. I gave the example of Irish Rail at the time and I also mentioned Irish Water. We have discussed the Irish Water amendment but I acknowledge Deputy Fleming was detained in the House. I said that ultimately Irish Water should be included but legislation is going through...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I have tried to address them.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Companies would be able to utilise it against them.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Yes, in section 36(3).

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: There is a whole range of things and I will give the Deputy a comprehensive answer if I may. I have already given a comprehensive answer several times. These are not State agencies. They are commercial entities which happen to be owned by the State with a commercial mandate operating in a regulated environment. The notion that they are agencies or Departments of State doing a bit of...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: They are commercial in every aspect.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It would impede their competitiveness and aid those in competition with them to their disadvantage.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: It goes well beyond commercial sensitivity. I am trying to give the Deputy a list. I think he understands the point.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I was in the process of doing so, but the Deputy stated that he understood.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I do not think the Deputy has grasped what I have stated. These are commercial companies and to include them in the freedom of information regime when their competitors in the private sphere are not included would be to hobble them as effective players in a commercial market.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I have a whole range of issues.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I was in the process of listing them. One is that anybody doing business with them would be fearful that their data, bids and interactions with them would come into the public sphere, so they would be disadvantaged on that front. Their own cost base and internal structures would be disadvantaged. One can think of all of the issues that could be subject to freedom of information requests...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I am afraid I am speaking the dialogue of the deaf.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Do not patronise me.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: I do not mind toing and froing because it allows people to speak. We have different perspectives on this. I have set out my case repeatedly, today and on the previous occasion, and the Deputy wants to corral this into commercial sensitivity-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The Deputy is drilling down. I do not know-----

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: The bottom line is there is no absolute definition of commercial sensitivity. Virtually everything these companies do is commercially sensitive. There is no doubt in any person's mind that they would be disadvantaged with regard to the private sector, which is not subject to freedom of information provisions. This is a simple, plain fact. They would be disadvantaged even from the point of...

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: That is one of the North-South bodies. If the Deputy had been listening, I gave a different rationale for its exemption.

Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform: Select Sub-Committee on Public Expenditure and Reform: Freedom of Information Bill 2013: Committee Stage (12 Nov 2013)

Brendan Howlin: Yes.

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