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Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I accept that. I would prefer to put a question to Mr. Merrigan, but he is not here. Would it be the view of Mr. O'Flynn that Mr Merrigan gave the impression to the HSE or relevant agencies that he was putting this money into a SIPTU account? Was it the view of the public agencies providing funding that the money was going to a SIPTU account?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: What was Mr. Merrigan's day job?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I want to expand on a point one of my colleagues touched on. We know, a statement of fact, that he went to New York in March 2004, January 2005, March 2006, February and November 2007, with his spouse, Savannah in March 2008, Brisbane in October 2008 and New York in March and June 2009. We think it likely, based on the Comptroller and Auditor General's uncovering of additional trips, that...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I accept that. He would have taken some or many of the trips, perhaps, outside of work or on annual leave. As for the trips he took during work time, Mr. O'Flynn would have presumed he was attending as a SIPTU official, with senior officials from the Department of Health, to engage in some form of research.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I refer to the other signatory on the account. The second signatory was a Mr. Jack Kelly, who was a non-executive member of the national executive of SIPTU. Is that correct?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Again, he would have travelled abroad on a number of occasions. He was a member of SIPTU's national executive. I presume, that like a member of any national executive board or club, there were no conversations with other members of the national executive. Was Mr. Kelly not sharing his information with the national executive?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: It would have been a very serious offence - if that is the right word - or internal matter, for a member of the national executive - albeit also a HSE employee - to be signing cheques inferring that it was a SIPTU account which it clearly was not.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: If I am sitting on the other side of the table in this and I am the HSE or the Department of Health, and I see that cheques are being signed by a pretty senior official in SIPTU who works directly in negotiations in this area and also by a member of the national executive of SIPTU, one can see how the impression would have been created for people and the presumption that this money was going...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I can assure Mr. O'Flynn that they have serious questions to answer when they come before the committee. I refer to the fund administered by Mr. Merrigan who carried out or commissioned his own Grant Thornton report. He commissioned it to forensically review the transactions of the account. It is referred to in paragraph 1.27 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. Mr. Merrigan...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Did Mr. Merrigan himself pay for this report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I appreciate that and I appreciate Mr. O'Flynn's view that it should be made available to the Comptroller and Auditor General and published. Did SIPTU pay to view report or did it pay for the report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I ask Mr. O'Flynn to excuse my ignorance but I want to tease this out. Did SIPTU pay Mr. Merrigan or Grant Thornton for sight of the report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: That sounds to me like a very bizarre arrangement but I take Mr. O'Flynn's word. Has Mr. O'Flynn seen the report?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Has Mr. O'Flynn seen it?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I refer now to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, section 3.12. A sample of 56 individual payees with payments to the value of €370,000 were selected for confirmation of the amounts paid. As the payment records show only the names of the payees, the inspection team forwarded a list of payees to SIPTU and requested that it assist with the supply of addresses, where...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: I have a question for the Comptroller and Auditor General. My understanding is that his office identified a sample of 56 individuals who had received payments and with whom it wished to speak in order to complete its work. Our colleagues in SIPTU have indicated that 40 people contacted them, but only 11 got back to the Comptroller and Auditor General's office. Will Mr. McCarthy confirm...

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Can Mr. McCarthy quantify the information deficit or gap this created in his investigation?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Did one of those 11 transactions involve the payment of a college grant?

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Paragraph 3.14 of the report mentions a payment amounting to €6,900.

Public Accounts Committee: 2009 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 37 - SKILL Programme (Resumed)
2010 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts
Chapter 41 - Partnership Arrangements in the Health Service
Special Report No. 80 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Administration of National Health and Local Authority Levy Fund
(20 Jun 2013)

Simon Harris: Is Mr. McCarthy satisfied that of the 11 recipients who got back to his office, the payments made to them were in line with the aims and objectives of the scheme?

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